$25 NL HE 6-max: $30NL 6-max: Overplayed QQ??

[canbora]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.10/$.25

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.15/$0.30 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $48.73 (162 bb)
MP: $30.00 (100 bb)
CO (Hero): $44.97 (150 bb)
BU: $25.31 (84 bb)
SB: $18.96 (63 bb)
BB: $35.27 (118 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with Q♣ Q♥
UTG raises to $1.50, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $4.50, 3 players fold, UTG calls $3

Flop: ($9.75) 8♦ 5♠ T♠ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $9.26, UTG calls $9.26

Turn: ($28.27) 4♦ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $31.21 (all-in), UTG calls $31.21

Hello everyone! First post! ... I hope I'm doing this right. Please forgive me if I did any of this incorrect.

So. first off. this is 30NL, not 25NL, minor difference.

The entire stakes here, on all tables, were very nitty no matter which tables I played. Everyone is over folding preflop. Despite this I managed to build up to 150BB, and so did the villain. All of my premium hands are going uncalled, and I'm basically stealing all pots. I had VERY high "won without showdown" in almost 200 hands at this table. I've seen the villain make questionable calls against the maniac, chronic, short-stacker at the able various times, despite every time the maniac shoved he had 2 pair or better. So...overall a nit, but when given odds will make a bad passive call down. Out of nowhere, he raises 5x under the gun????????? like, why bro? Usually rec's do this and it SCREAMS AKo/AKs, they're protecting hardcore. But why on a nit table??? I look down and see QQ. I'm like, time to extra value. I feel a min raise to 9x would have been the right call, had I done that it would have ENTIRELY changed the way I played this hand....entirely.

I 3x'd to 15bb to get value from AK preflop. He calls. Not snap call, but quick. So now the pot is huge for the norm, approx. 30bb. Flop comes, low cards, no straights or flushes possible and I have a huge over pair. I purposely play my hand like a noob to represent exactly what I have. I 'know' he has AK, possibly AK spades, and I do NOT want to lose this pot. I'm HAPPY to take it down here. I don't want a spade, an A or a K. I don't fear the straight from this player.

So, I bet the pot. I want to take this now. He thinks for a second, but calls quickly. At this point, its the turn, straight gets there, but I'm not worried about that at all. At this point the pot is near the size of my stack, so I shove. If I'm good and I hold, I want maxiumum value.

Your opinions... PLEASE!

 

[canbora]

TLDR version

Table is nitty, everyone is overfolding but I've seen the villain make passive questionable calls vs the short-stacked, maniac,
calling station at the table despite every time the maniac shoved he always had two small pairs, like 26o , 93o, etc. with hands like A3s, with
either just A high or a pair of aces. He did this repeatedly.

Villain UTG raises to 5x out of nowhere. To me this screamed AK, why do this?
Based on the table more than likely everyone is going to fold. I was trying to extract maximum value.

 

[gustav197poker]

Preflop
From your description, you represent a wide range and took advantage of many opportunities to steal the pot.
From what you say, you have tried to camouflage your hand and get value quickly.
It seems to me that if you had min raised to 2.7 that would look a little suspicious, so I think your 3-bet to 3x is fine.
Flop
I guess you behaved the same way you did the other times you were able to take over the pot. The size is fine, but changing the proportions could also help you achieve the same effect. For instance instead of pot bet, make 1/2 pot, etc.
The texture is somewhat coordinated but low impact for the UTG range. You shouldn't worry about a large cbet to get fold equity here. Also, if your tendency is to make big bets on this type of board, by trying a smaller size, you would attract the attention of your V and you could make him think that you want him to pay you, because you have a monster of a hand. (Which will generate fold equity anyway).
Turn
Your aggressive line makes sense, but it is better to do it when you have a relevant blocker. For instance if you had the Q of spade, or the Q of diamond.
As played it is difficult to think that this V no calls w/ hands as KK+. Although if he was a little tilded, he could have called you with a flushdraw or some dominated hand.

 

[Station_Master]

Which pokerstars site is this that offers 30NL, a regional site I presume?

When players suddenly make huge open sizes, I tend to 3bet less and call more. Especially 150bb deep you are not really trying to stack off with QQ. Fortunately villain just calls but he could be slow playing AA, KK or AK still.

Flop is ok for your hand, not amazing for range, so I would mix bet and check,obviously betting QQ. I dont think it's necessary to go full pot, as it's too easy for villain just to bin his unpaired hands. When he calls you are really hoping he has ATs or JJ or a flush draw and not something that beats you. If he ever only calls AA or KK to the 3bet then you are porentially in bad shape as you also lose to TT and 88.

Turn - I'm not sure about the jam, yes you deny the flush draws equity but when you are called you are almost always beat unless villain gets sticky with JJ. The SPR is kind of low so if you are going to bet it probably should be a shove. So given you will likely be in bad shape if called, I probably prefer a check and bluff catch non front door flush completing rivers, value betting if he checks.

 

[canbora]

Preflop
From your description, you represent a wide range and took advantage of many opportunities to steal the pot.
From what you say, you have tried to camouflage your hand and get value quickly.
It seems to me that if you had min raised to 2.7 that would look a little suspicious, so I think your 3-bet to 3x is fine.
Flop
I guess you behaved the same way you did the other times you were able to take over the pot. The size is fine, but changing the proportions could also help you achieve the same effect. For instance instead of pot bet, make 1/2 pot, etc.
The texture is somewhat coordinated but low impact for the UTG range. You shouldn't worry about a large cbet to get fold equity here. Also, if your tendency is to make big bets on this type of board, by trying a smaller size, you would attract the attention of your V and you could make him think that you want him to pay you, because you have a monster of a hand. (Which will generate fold equity anyway).
Turn
Your aggressive line makes sense, but it is better to do it when you have a relevant blocker. For instance if you had the Q of spade, or the Q of diamond.
As played it is difficult to think that this V no calls w/ hands as KK+. Although if he was a little tilded, he could have called you with a flushdraw or some dominated hand.

I appreciate you, sir. Thank you.

My overall self evaluation was, I didn't pull a total blunder, it was understandable, but could have been done better.

The reason I made pot size bets vs half pots. is 1. thats what I've been doing this entire time lol. I was trying to change it up. So you're right, it does work. 2. contradicting number one, i've found at micro tables you have to bump up the standard. For instance, often instead of 1/2 to 2/3 its more common to bet the pot. When you get higher in stakes, you adjust everything down. I could be wrong. I wanted to "scream" at him, hey bro I have an overpair, and you know it. And You have high cards, and I know it. Make my day punk. haha. The goal was to be super obvious. Which I feel I was.

Whats the custom here, do I post the outcome of the hand? Do I just type it out or should I somehow do fancy graphics or what? lol

 

[canbora]

Which pokerstars site is this that offers 30NL, a regional site I presume?

When players suddenly make huge open sizes, I tend to 3bet less and call more. Especially 150bb deep you are not really trying to stack off with QQ. Fortunately villain just calls but he could be slow playing AA, KK or AK still.

Flop is ok for your hand, not amazing for range, so I would mix bet and check,obviously betting QQ. I dont think it's necessary to go full pot, as it's too easy for villain just to bin his unpaired hands. When he calls you are really hoping he has ATs or JJ or a flush draw and not something that beats you. If he ever only calls AA or KK to the 3bet then you are porentially in bad shape as you also lose to TT and 88.

Turn - I'm not sure about the jam, yes you deny the flush draws equity but when you are called you are almost always beat unless villain gets sticky with JJ. The SPR is kind of low so if you are going to bet it probably should be a shove. So given you will likely be in bad shape if called, I probably prefer a check and bluff catch non front door flush completing rivers, value betting if he checks.

Thank you as well. Yeah...it was just a messed up situation. No matter how much I play, watch, chat, and train.......this game is full of umlited suations to mix you up.

I was thinking the same as well preflop. Hence why said maybe a min raise. It would still have elminated other players being they are nits. And if I do get reraised. I know where I'm at and I just call. This also would highly effect my post flop play , and would have. ...........but thats not what happened. lol

But back to preflop. Yeah even though it was an open raise, size of raise has to be considered. You just don't blindly multiply it. But I was "sure" he had AK and I wanted value. .. its just so messed up.

 

[canbora]

Which pokerstars site is this that offers 30NL, a regional site I presume?

Pennsylvania. Is that what you were asking?

 

[Station_Master]

Pennsylvania. Is that what you were asking?

Yeah, just curious
And it's probably softer than 25NL on the global site.

As for preflop if you are gonna 3bet then 3x is fine, I wouldn't go much smaller, but QQ is fine to flat sometimes as it strengthens your flatting range and means you have hands villain is not expecting. Plus as I say I would get suspicious when the open size suddenly changes.

Dont post the results yet, let a few more people comment but my guess is you ran into AA.

 

[canbora]

Yeah, just curious
And it's probably softer than 25NL on the global site.

As for preflop if you are gonna 3bet then 3x is fine, I wouldn't go much smaller, but QQ is fine to flat sometimes as it strengthens your flatting range and means you have hands villain is not expecting. Plus as I say I would get suspicious when the open size suddenly changes.

Dont post the results yet, let a few more people comment but my guess is you ran into AA.

In my opinion it is soft. Soft as in nitty. Its so bizarre. (thats why I was playing like I did. if the table is nits, you steal.) If I check stats on other stakes tables, the entire 30NL is SUPER nit. Its like...when people are getting better and over do GTO but they don't fully understand the game (myself included lol) and they become MOSTLY predictable. But like most newbs, they play 'good' when they're feeling OK, but the biggest leak at this level is people haven't conquered their emotions yet and bizarrely do outrageous things out of nowhere. Then, when the calm down they go back to being decent players. Again, myself included. I've gotten MUCH better at this. But that played a huge factor here. I had a hand... I knew what I was doing...and reason I played the way I did was I was mildly frustrated at the nittyness of the table, i had a hand, and I wanted max value and I did NOT want to let that go. I 'knew' he had AK and I was going to charge him for it.

And you're 100% right, when the size changes, get suspicious. Just even from this single hand I feel I've learned a lot. Truth be told, im more of a MTT player. Especially PKO, I love PKO. But I'm trying to get better at cash games. I'll play up to 100NL. I've noticed 100NL and 50NL are near the same. Obvious slight difference. But near the same. 30NL is a thing un to itself. and 5 and 10NL are a group and 2NL is just pure nuthouse. I make mention of all of this because I always see peoplpe saying things dont change and its all one group. No, no, each level has subtle but distinct differences. I never have played above 100NL (that I remember) and highest ive ever played (that I remeber) is 1/3 in vegas like....18 years ago?? i think, close enough.

 

[canbora]

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.15/$0.30 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $48.73 (162 bb)
MP: $30.00 (100 bb)
CO (Hero): $44.97 (150 bb)
BU: $25.31 (84 bb)
SB: $18.96 (63 bb)
BB: $35.27 (118 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with Q♣ Q♥
UTG raises to $1.50, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $4.50, 3 players fold, UTG calls $3

Flop: ($9.75) 8♦ 5♠ T♠ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $9.26, UTG calls $9.26

Turn: ($28.27) 4♦ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $31.21 (all-in), UTG calls $31.21

Villain: Seat 1: showed [Ks Kh] and won ($88.69) with a pair of Kings

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot to add here to this so...I put the results in, at the end of the quote.


This guy...this guy.. this is a unique situation and I'm not sure how to evaluate this player. At glance, I'd say hes not very good. Yet every time I log on, hes multiabling at this site and hes got a HUGE stack in front of him. So clearly he's not only winning, hes crushing. Its weird, its like star wars. I love star wars, but I'll admit its trash lol. Its just a bunch of contradicting nonsense, as far as the story line goes. Yet its one of the biggest IP's in history. Is it good or not? This guy does ridiculous stuff, but it works?

I cant justify his 5x raise out of nowhere on a nit table. 99% of the time that's going to generate a fold and you lost value from your kings. WTF? Like why do that? He got lucky in the sense that I had one of the few hands he has dominated and paid him off. I mean...what are the odds???? And as I've said I've seen him call off stacks against a maniac who has proven that if he shoves, he has it. This villain, continued to make questionable calls.

I do know this. I got in a pot with him last night. He min raised MP, I was in the BB with 10 8 offsuit. It's a nit table. he likes his hand, hes going to bet, im getting odds to call and if i hit im taking it down. Board comes 5 5 10 rainbow. He checks, I bet half pot. He calls, turn comes 8. I bet third pot, he calls. river comes 3. he checks, i bet third pot for value, he check raises me. I snap call, he turns over pocket 2's.

I've consistently showed, much like the previously mentioned maniac, that I'm not full of it. plus that board is in my range in the blind. Yet he check raises me? What would he have that beats me? He just gave me back most of what he took from me the previous session.

 

[fundiver199]

First of all when you play stakes like these, you really should take advantage of the fact, PokerStars allow trackers (HUDs). The purchasing fee for PT4 is basically only 3 buyins at 30NL, and after that its 1 buyin a year to achieve updates and support. This will quickly pay itself back, if you play with any sort of regularity. I am saying this, because some more information about the opponent would have been very valuable, especially when he chose an unusual open size like 5X. If this is someone with maniac stats like 47/34, then I will approach the situation very different than, if he is a TAG playing 19/16.

Preflop
First of all QQ is not always a 3-bet in this configuration, although I would guess, that against regular sizing like 2,5BB, solvers would mostly 3-bet this hand. However as an open size gets larger, you are supposed to 3-bet less and call more, since the blinds are already getting a bad price to defend, and the opponent is supposed to be on a stronger range. It sounds like, you believe his range is capped (AA or KK would want more action), and that might be the case.

But you probably dont have any real knowledge about this, so flatting should at least be considered. It kind of sucks to get 4-bet, especially when you are this deep, and your 3-bet has to be large, because his open is large. But ok you 3-bet, and I can kind of get on board with that. You just need to have a plan in advance for, what you are going to do facing a 4-bet. And to be honest the plan is probably to fold, unless he is a maniac. In that case I would be willing to get it in pre against his range with QQ. Even 150BB deep. But against other players I would not.

Flop
You can certainly C-bet here, but I dont see any reason to go almost full pot. If he has AK and has missed (which is quite likely), then a much smaller bet is enough to get him to fold out his 25% equity. Or even better he call drawing to just 6 outs. When you bomb it like this, you pretty much only get action from JJ and hands, that beat you or have huge equity like AX of spades.

Turn
Given what I just wrote, you cant even bet for value, when you went so large on the flop. So as played this is a check back and then make a decision on the river. On a Q or a non-spade T or lower, you can bluff-catch, if he bet or bet for value if checked to. But stacks are very awkward, because you bet so much on the flop. If you had bet less, you would have much more room to bet for instance 40% pot on the river and still fold to a check-jam.

Conclusion
Without even looking at the results: Yes you overplayed QQ.

 

[canbora]

First of all when you play stakes like these, you really should take advantage of the fact, PokerStars allow trackers (HUDs). The purchasing fee for PT4 is basically only 3 buyins at 30NL, and after that its 1 buyin a year to achieve updates and support. This will quickly pay itself back, if you play with any sort of regularity. I am saying this, because some more information about the opponent would have been very valuable, especially when he chose an unusual open size like 5X. If this is someone with maniac stats like 47/34, then I will approach the situation very different than, if he is a TAG playing 19/16.

Preflop
First of all QQ is not always a 3-bet in this configuration, although I would guess, that against regular sizing like 2,5BB, solvers would mostly 3-bet this hand. However as an open size gets larger, you are supposed to 3-bet less and call more, since the blinds are already getting a bad price to defend, and the opponent is supposed to be on a stronger range. It sounds like, you believe his range is capped (AA or KK would want more action), and that might be the case.

But you probably dont have any real knowledge about this, so flatting should at least be considered. It kind of sucks to get 4-bet, especially when you are this deep, and your 3-bet has to be large, because his open is large. But ok you 3-bet, and I can kind of get on board with that. You just need to have a plan in advance for, what you are going to do facing a 4-bet. And to be honest the plan is probably to fold, unless he is a maniac. In that case I would be willing to get it in pre against his range with QQ. Even 150BB deep. But against other players I would not.

Flop
You can certainly C-bet here, but I dont see any reason to go almost full pot. If he has AK and has missed (which is quite likely), then a much smaller bet is enough to get him to fold out his 25% equity. Or even better he call drawing to just 6 outs. When you bomb it like this, you pretty much only get action from JJ and hands, that beat you or have huge equity like AX of spades.

Turn
Given what I just wrote, you cant even bet for value, when you went so large on the flop. So as played this is a check back and then make a decision on the river. On a Q or a non-spade T or lower, you can bluff-catch, if he bet or bet for value if checked to. But stacks are very awkward, because you bet so much on the flop. If you had bet less, you would have much more room to bet for instance 40% pot on the river and still fold to a check-jam.

Conclusion
Without even looking at the results: Yes you overplayed QQ.

I appreciate your analysis, and I of course think you're spot on with everything you said.

I think I needed to play this hand badly to gain the lesson from it that I did. ....which I did wholeheartedly. I already had instincts and inklings, but I didn't see the full picture. And yeah, even though I would have puked, I would have folded to a four bet pre-flop had he done so. (I had that much of a plan in mind). I played about 1,000 hands yesterday and multiple opportunities to execute this lesson profitably, and did. Even had one bite me in rear with an outdraw, which happens, it's poker.

Like I just solidified another lesson last night. Just because the table is four handed, doesn't make Q 10 offsuit a good hand. Lol. I played that hand badly and so did my opponent. I gave away a lot of profit with that hand. I knew I should have folded and I didn't. I "bought" another lesson.

 

[Aballinamion]

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.15/$0.30 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $48.73 (162 bb)
MP: $30.00 (100 bb)
CO (Hero): $44.97 (150 bb)
BU: $25.31 (84 bb)
SB: $18.96 (63 bb)
BB: $35.27 (118 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with Q♣ Q♥
UTG raises to $1.50, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $4.50, 3 players fold, UTG calls $3

Flop: ($9.75) 8♦ 5♠ T♠ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $9.26, UTG calls $9.26

Turn: ($28.27) 4♦ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $31.21 (all-in), UTG calls $31.21

Hello everyone! First post! ... I hope I'm doing this right. Please forgive me if I did any of this incorrect.

So. first off. this is 30NL, not 25NL, minor difference.

The entire stakes here, on all tables, were very nitty no matter which tables I played. Everyone is over folding preflop. Despite this I managed to build up to 150BB, and so did the villain. All of my premium hands are going uncalled, and I'm basically stealing all pots. I had VERY high "won without showdown" in almost 200 hands at this table. I've seen the villain make questionable calls against the maniac, chronic, short-stacker at the able various times, despite every time the maniac shoved he had 2 pair or better. So...overall a nit, but when given odds will make a bad passive call down. Out of nowhere, he raises 5x under the gun????????? like, why bro? Usually rec's do this and it SCREAMS AKo/AKs, they're protecting hardcore. But why on a nit table??? I look down and see QQ. I'm like, time to extra value. I feel a min raise to 9x would have been the right call, had I done that it would have ENTIRELY changed the way I played this hand....entirely.

I 3x'd to 15bb to get value from AK preflop. He calls. Not snap call, but quick. So now the pot is huge for the norm, approx. 30bb. Flop comes, low cards, no straights or flushes possible and I have a huge over pair. I purposely play my hand like a noob to represent exactly what I have. I 'know' he has AK, possibly AK spades, and I do NOT want to lose this pot. I'm HAPPY to take it down here. I don't want a spade, an A or a K. I don't fear the straight from this player.

So, I bet the pot. I want to take this now. He thinks for a second, but calls quickly. At this point, its the turn, straight gets there, but I'm not worried about that at all. At this point the pot is near the size of my stack, so I shove. If I'm good and I hold, I want maxiumum value.

Your opinions... PLEASE!

I don't know what the heck are we doing trying to get profit on a table full of tight/NIT players. As played I think it's fine but I guess we aren't getting too much action of worst in scenarios like this.

 

[canbora]

I don't know what the heck are we doing trying to get profit on a table full of tight/NIT players. As played I think it's fine but I guess we aren't getting too much action of worst in scenarios like this.

right, just one of those things.

 

[canbora]

No need to start a new thread for this, but this happened today.

Got QQ again, UTG. Was using the poker tracker and the trial banner was across the top, it completely blocks out the top of the table. I was multiabling 30NL which caused me to be momentarily distracted. It was crazy this afternoon with the maniacs. I thought the button just flat called, who seems a decent player. And the maniac raised who was a semi short stack. I thought, oh, the button would have 3 bet, I have the maniac beat, I have the third best hand, You're semi short, we're playing for it all and the button will either fold or MAYBE call with his AJ or whatever. I'm still the favorite. I then realized the button was the three better. He had AA, maniac had 2 5 offsuit, so i was half right lol. Button hits third ace on the flop. I was 0.1% to win hahaha.

My fault, I own that.
Took a break, turned off the bloody tracker and went to 50NL, which I play too. Single tabling, to end the session good focused play and positive thoughts.