$2000 NLHE 6-max: What would you do here?

[StormRaven]

Hero is utg, I don't like the preflop bet unless he was planning to come over the top to a raise. A raise did occur and hero only smooth calls - why? Are you inviting 10 10 - QQ or AK - AJsu to get in the pot with you and flop an A?
. Maybe villain put hero on AK-AJ and figures he missed the flop, bet out with his 22 then turns the set? quote]

AJ is going to flat a 4-bet out of position in early levels of a $2,500 buyin?? Umm.... I don't think so.
Ducks are gonna bloat up the pot with a 4-bet & set mine w/o imp. odds at start of a $2,500 buyin? I really doubt it.
Fear of giving someone a free card because they might hit a 2outer for a set? THis wasn't the Fulltilt Daily $1.

I have never played in a buy in that large - so yes, I am going by things I've seen (fwiw - I've never played the daily dollar) and from what I have seen on tv with much larger buy ins.

I'm trying to stay open minded and agree with you, I would not call a 4bet out oop with AJsu with these levels but that doesn't mean someone else won't. The players know each other and I am making an assumption they know each others styles and ranges. I agree it is more likely the oop player called with a range of KK/AA/AKsu - either way that doesn't diminish my original point of flat calling the reraise. Of course utg should be concerned of a possible AA but you aren't going to throw away KK pf because of the possibility so why not reraise again to A) gather more info B) try to eliminate one or both opps?

My thinking is, and I very well could be wrong, it's better to try and take down this small pot now instead of losing a big one. I might change my mind if I get up to the $2500 buy in limits, who knows.
Maybe not ducks, maybe 99-JJ, I play a lot of tourneys (no not $2500 ones) but at the start with blinds so low I can very well see someone in pos reraising with a ppr to eliminate the middle caller and/or to set up for a steal in pos on the flop. With 99-JJ this would be a great flop with pos. Flopping a set of 9's or an overpair, with original raise only being 60 chips in a deepstacked tourney that opens the range of hands the utg player might have opened with.
Why not fear someone giving a free card and hitting a 2 outer for a set? If I change the 22 to JJ then does that possibility sound better?

I could be completely off base here, I understand that is a possibility but you haven't listed any possibilities, only criticized mine. So why not put yourself out there and offer your own possibilities?

Many players will take more chances and risks early on in a tourney (yes, even a $2500 one) to accumulate a chip lead for various reasons. Many players play very tight in the early stages and loosen up later on. We have not be given any info on this table or the players to be able to determine ranges and styles so yes, I think the possibilities I listed could happen unless we receive better info. Maybe the exact hands listed weren't the best examples but I still think the utg player with KK made several mistakes in his play.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

The actual player in this hand opted to fold turn saying, he was check/calling flop with the intention of check/folding the turn.

The more I've thought about it (this one is haunting me) the more I figure that is my play too. Though I am not sure C/C the turn makes sense. Can someone reason that out for me?

I will assume from the buyin that the opposition is a good player. Everything he has done screams Aces. He is either being very honest or dishonest in this hand. Mighty ballsy if its the latter

I suppose I am way out of my league...

 

[vanquish]

The more I've thought about it (this one is haunting me) the more I figure that is my play too. Though I am not sure C/C the turn makes sense. Can someone reason that out for me?

I will assume from the buyin that the opposition is a good player. Everything he has done screams Aces. He is either being very honest or dishonest in this hand. Mighty ballsy if its the latter

I suppose I am way out of my league...

my issue with c/c and then c/f is that it's a really awfully exploitable tournament line (you generally wanna avoid using the call button in tournaments), and you'll see a lot of high class tournament players avoid the c/c line on every street. besides, if you c/c, you are also doing so to "induce" a bluff (to some degree), so c/c'ing, and then c/f'ing allows the opponent to bluff you off a lot of chips

 

[dj11]

I assure you I know nothing about the participants. It would serve me better to share any info I have so that it may contribute to the discussion.

You would take the bad player line and 5bet/call or shove pre-flop?

No, it was after a seemingly innocuous turn that I would shove.

I could add that I could fold PF here, depending on what reads, or lack of reads I have. On my better days, I really want to avoid engagements before I have any clue who is sitting at my table. I have folded K's preflop for that reason, but I can't say I've done it regularly.

So the argument (IMO) for folding PF would be that the potential gain is not equal to the potential damage regardless of the odds. This is a tourney after all and the approach must differ from ring play. Tho early, ICM principles apply.

The argument for shoving the turn (IMO), is less persuasive, but it would go along the lines of whether or not I believed the villain. And from the HH, I am reluctant to think he is sitting premium at this point. Yes he could be sitting there with AKdiamonds, or 67o or a pair of aces or a set of 8's, but the most likely hand I think is AKoffsuit and the guy is praying. It is also the hand that best fits (IMO) the story of his betting.

So it sort of boils down to how much I believe this villain, at this moment (the turn) and I don't believe him, so I shove.

 

[Zybomb]

the most likely hand I think is AKoffsuit and the guy is praying. It is also the hand that best fits (IMO) the story of his betting.

So it sort of boils down to how much I believe this villain, at this moment (the turn) and I don't believe him, so I shove.

What leads you not to believe him? If he had AA how do you believe he'd play it?

 

[dj11]

2nd day with this hand and it's getting interesting......

What I see a lot is that AA in this situation may elect to float till the pot gets happier.

His 4 bet up front certainly screams the possibility of AA, but I see it often enough at all the games I've played in, that it could also be a small PP or a complete bluff by a maniac in position. The bet absolutely does at least represent the severe possibility of AA.

However, once the flop hits, most might slow down with the AA after 2 calls, and 2 up front raises. Either of the callers could have hit and are trapping. A reasonable player should be thinking about chip protection at that point (tourney vs ring thinking). His bet on the flop to a check check looks like thievery as much as it looks like anything, and it did put the fear of god into one player, but the call here should have sent up warning flags even if he is sitting AA. I know I see those flags.

On the turn, after a decent delay, Jim checks, and villain seems a bit too eager to close it out. If villain is sitting pretty with AA or 67, or a set, I just have to think he would bet for value rather than bet for the close out.

All this provides me with a conundrum that I think much of the time I will solve by shoving the turn and thriving or diving. But I am not the hero here, and I can see the validity of folding here as well.

Here is my perverted math;

I figure PF, about 93% of the time I'm good;

Using a sloppy 200 hands per AA, and 80 hands for a 67, I figure about a 20% chance that villain is holding one of those hands, and another 20% he is sitting with a PP, so I come up with an off the cuff figure oif a bit over 50 % of the time I'm good on the flop.

This is always a dangerous situation because it invites commitment. In this case I think the flop check was a bad move. Hero could have found out so much more, risking less doing it, by betting out something like 800-1000 chips. He gains first in vigorish doing so and puts some serious doubt into both villains. Villain #2 still drops out, but villain #1 calls, telling us not much, or raises, telling us a lot. Had this happened, I can see the turn fold as very valid.

 

[Zybomb]

However, once the flop hits, most might slow down with the AA after 2 calls, and 2 up front raises. Either of the callers could have hit and are trapping. A reasonable player should be thinking about chip protection at that point (tourney vs ring thinking). His bet on the flop to a check check looks like thievery as much as it looks like anything, and it did put the fear of god into one player, but the call here should have sent up warning flags even if he is sitting AA. I know I see those flags.

We open UTG and called a 4 bet cold. I guess we could have 99 here, but more likely we have a large PP as well. I'd check AA in this spot approximately never after Ive 4 bet and then been checked to on the flop. As far as the turn goes, if I put you on QQ/KK I'd for sure bet again and hope that you aren't good enough to get off of it. I've noticed a lot of people refuse to fold AA in 4 bet pots under the impression "if he hit a set he hit a set". As far as the small PP/AK theory I disagree. This deep most players don't even 3 bet AK let alone 4 bet it. As far as a PP with stacks this deep they'd more likely cold call to set mine and win a huge pot rather than try n steal a couple of hundred preflop with a bluff. If this is not AA it's complete air

We also aren't putting nearly enough emphasis on the fact that 4 bets in level one with deep stacks are very very uncommon, as people don't want to risk blowing up pots for no reason to win small pots when the structure is so slow and stacks are deep

This is always a dangerous situation because it invites commitment. In this case I think the flop check was a bad move. Hero could have found out so much more, risking less doing it, by betting out something like 800-1000 chips. He gains first in vigorish doing so and puts some serious doubt into both villains. Villain #2 still drops out, but villain #1 calls, telling us not much, or raises, telling us a lot. Had this happened, I can see the turn fold as very valid.

See I disagree strongly here. Leading out doesn't accomplish much or tell us anything, as villain is likely to call or raise with his entire range here. We've now reached the turn (if he just calls) and still have no idea where we're at and we're OOP....and what's our plan? To bet again? What if he shoves? To check call (wouldn't he play aces like this?). If he does raise, we're still OOP, we still have no idea where we are and the pot has just been inflated. Add to the fact that a solid villain will play his bluffing range the exact same way as he'd play AA, meaning if he'd raise AA on this flop he's also raising his entire bluffing range if we donk into him. If he'd flat AA on this flop, he'd flat to set up a turn/river takeaway.

I don't believe leading out gets us any information and all it does is swell the pot

But I've been wrong before, so I'd love to hear others opinions (with logic) if they disagree

 

[dj11]

Zy, I love how you're tearing me a new asshole. That is not a flippant statement, I really do appreciate it. I like your logic, and your writing style.

However (knew that was coming didn't you?) You're comments seem extremely ring oriented. Not a bad thing at all, especially since this tourney hand was purposefully posted under ring games.

This hand will play out differently in ring vs tourney. It is likely in ring the concept of 'early' doesn't bear the same weight as it does in tourney play.

4 betting seldom happens in tourney play, or at least the tourneys I play, and when it does it is usually from someone doomed to die 'early'.

In practice, I would very possibly folded to the 4 bet PF. I would do that when I felt no pressure to challenge any particular player. With a background notion of 'it's just not worth it, and it doesn't feel right'.

In a ring version, the existing odds might dictate how this hand is played where in a tourney, this hand is a ball buster and early it promises as much grief as anything else, and early I don't want to get heavy into a ball buster.

But the KK UTG is always, in either version, a hard hand to get away from.
In the micro limits its a shove situation, in the mid limits its fairly textbook to press thru out the hand leaving wiggle room on the turn and river, and truthfully I don't know how it is played in big limits except for what I see on TV. And TV poker would suggest that the 67 push pf, and subsequent calls are not so weird. Sammy Farha, Gus, Durrrrrr, hell even Daniel would often raise in late position with these hands. And since the stakes in this HH are in that range, I would have to rely on what I think I know.

For sure I will want to see the flop every time I start off with KK.

 

[Poker Orifice]

4 betting seldom happens in tourney play, or at least the tourneys I play, and when it does it is usually from someone doomed to die 'early'.

.

4-betting happens regularly in higher buy-in online tourney play!!!
There's alot deeper level thinking in the higher buyins,.. ie. 3-betting light is common and even 4-betting light in lieu of suspect 'light-3-betting' is also something you'll see quite a bit.
Try watching some higher buyin MTT training vids., or Video Critiques done by online pros of higher buyin MTT's.... I think you'd be quite surprised at some of the suggested/recommended spots where they're screaming to 3-bet light and 4-bet (I was). Obviously in a low buyin MTT you won't see this and it's going to be AA KK most of the time (although some will opt to only 'MinRs' 3-bet from LP or the blinds with their monsters (<< a pretty transparent play done mostly in the micros).

 

[StormRaven]

4-betting happens regularly in higher buy-in online tourney play!!!
There's alot deeper level thinking in the higher buyins,.. ie. 3-betting light is common and even 4-betting light in lieu of suspect 'light-3-betting' is also something you'll see quite a bit.
Try watching some higher buyin MTT training vids., or Video Critiques done by online pros of higher buyin MTT's.... I think you'd be quite surprised at some of the suggested/recommended spots where they're screaming to 3-bet light and 4-bet (I was). Obviously in a low buyin MTT you won't see this and it's going to be AA KK most of the time (although some will opt to only 'MinRs' 3-bet from LP or the blinds with their monsters (<< a pretty transparent play done mostly in the micros).

I absolutely agree with this.
I still have a question for all - the preflop play still bothers me. Maybe it''s just my style, but for the life of me I don't understand why KK is smooth calling the 4 bet knowing the squeeze person will also smooth call. Why not reraise and hope to at least get the squeeze out? I understand the AA is a possibility and if the lp shoves then you have a tough call (in my case I would fold the KK if the lp shoves this early in a tourney) but at least you would either 1)hopefully get squeeze to fold 2)save money if lp shoves 3)take pot down right there.

I very well could see with hyper aggressive players that they might 4 bet in lp with a wide range of hands and not necessarily holding AA. I agree with Orfice that it is mostly in micro stakes that you see this transparent of play with the AA/KK.

I also agree with dj11 that on the turn villain does appear to be too eager to close this out. Maybe that is what villain wants jim to think and he is holding the nutz, idk.

 

[Zybomb]

I absolutely agree with this.
I still have a question for all - the preflop play still bothers me. Maybe it''s just my style, but for the life of me I don't understand why KK is smooth calling the 4 bet knowing the squeeze person will also smooth call. Why not reraise and hope to at least get the squeeze out? I understand the AA is a possibility and if the lp shoves then you have a tough call (in my case I would fold the KK if the lp shoves this early in a tourney) but at least you would either 1)hopefully get squeeze to fold 2)save money if lp shoves 3)take pot down right there.

What are you hoping to achieve by 5 betting preflop? You likely will fold out all hands that you beat (JJ QQ etc) and will only receive action from AA. So in essence youre bluffing with KK preflop by 5 betting.

What if he calls the 5 bet? Whats your plan OOP for the flop? If you are 5 bet folding preflop, then what is the purpose of the 5 bet? You fold out worse hands, and AA gets more.

We can get the same information by seeing a flop and calling the flop (he'll likely slow down with JJ or QQ on the turn) plus see 4 cards to see if we setmine if we are behind.

The only positive thing I can see about 5 betting is that it squeezes out the original 3 bettor and isolates the 4 bettor. Fine.... but that is way overshadowed IMO by the fact that we fold out everything we beat and give more to AA.

 

[Zybomb]

Something else that I completed missed until just now.... and this is very important IMO, and now Im even more convinced that he has AA not air or a smaller pair. LOOK AT THE BET SIZING PREFLOP. His 4 bet is very small (only 280 more than the original 180 3 bet). If he had an AK or whatever type hand his bet size would normally be much higher to try and take it down preflop. This bet size screams Aces. Even if he had JJ or QQ and was 4 betting small for information or something, then he certainly wouldn't swell the pot by bombing the turn with a 2k bet. The bet size screams Aces

 

[dj11]

I'm sensing the higher buy-in tourney game is converging with equivalent buy-in ring games. Strategy wise that is. So that tourney strategies are discounted at these levels?

While this doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I would benefit from the thinking of anyone who is 4 betting early rounds in a tourney at any size. Like I said, I don't see much 4 betting, light or otherwise at any tourney under $50. Occasionally sure, but those guys are playing a game full of danger and MOST of the time have short lived tourney's. They tend to push less than premium hands because they saw it on TV or something, and are sure (in their minds) they can get villain to fold. Often fatal.

Even at the $25 level, many KK's will get mucked to a 3 bet, not 50% but possibly 20% by what I see as solid players. And in this case there is a solid argument favoring mucking to the reraise over the KK's. It's too early to jeopardize a stack with several possible different hands, (AA, set, 67) owning us already. At the lower level games, even an adventurous player might stay with 55.

I have to think that for the most part players in this high buy-in game can afford to be there. So I discount the scared money aspect of this hand, and instead replace it with decent common sence. Personally, I suffer from either a scared money stance, or common sence, along with several other untamed tendencies, during my tourney play.

Withoput looking back on what I originaly wrote, I would say that if I committed to the hand at the 3/4 bet stage, I am pretty much committed to it all the way without seeing an A on board. It is a flaw, I'm working on it, it might be cured soon.........