This is a discussion on €200 NLHE 6-max: Facing 3bet at 30bb with 99 within the online poker forums, in the Cash Game Hand Analysis section; Hi guys thanks for having me, this is my first post here, I hope it's not redundant and that you will be able to shine
Hi guys thanks for having me, this is my first post here, I hope it's not redundant and that you will be able to shine a light on my beginner's knowledge.
I played my first cash game in a casino last night. Casino Barcelona , 1/3 6max. I started at 50bb, managed to stay even for about 2h of play, just lost a couple of small pots, before this hand:
Hero is UTG, raises to 8 with pocket nines (has about 90/30bb left)
Villain is UTG+1, reraises to 24 (has about 450/150bb, quite loose aggressive player, 3bets a lot, saw him fold JJ to a 4bet shove at 60bb on the previous hand)
It folds to Hero who decides to go all in
I realised it was pretty much a mistake from me to jam, I have close to zero fold equity and will only be called by better hands or coin flips... I think I was a little bit on tilt and lost focus after 2h of play and wanted to leave...on a high ideally, haha.
What is the standard play here? Fold? Flat? Is this move ok? Thoughts?
Happy to post the outcome of the hand or any other info if it can help the analysis at all.
Many thanks, looking forward to read your comments!
Thanks for posting. Welcome to the Forum! Here's my 2 cents on the hand.
It's been 2 hours. You should have a pretty good idea not only of how loose and aggro V is but also how he is responding to UTG raises and how he is responding to Hero's raises. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that Hero has been playing tight as it is your first Casino trip and we bought in short for 50 BB and have been pretty much even for 2 hrs, not getting involved in any big pots or raising so rarely that we don't get much action and folding to major aggression. When V decides to attack our UTG open from UTG+1 with tons of action left behind him I don't expect that he has many if any bluffs. V should know Hero has a hand and is saying he wants to play for stacks with an early position ISO 3 bet. Although V is loose and aggro in general I suspect he is not loosely attacking EP opens, especially from tight players. I'm also going to assume that we are not remotely close to the top of our UTG opening range. Against this sizing and with our short remaining stack and our hand I would suggest folding here. If we are going to continue I don't mind a jam with only 27 BB left but from an minimum defense frequency point of view and given the game dynamics (some of which are assumption) I think we have better hands to continue with. AQ+, JJ+ seems reasonable in a vacuum. TT is a soul read. 99 just seems a bit loose unless V is has just been attacking your opens all night in which case you'll be facing more coin flips and even possibly some suited wheel Aces and under pairs allowing Hero to profitably jam wider. A lot of speculation here but I hope this helps.
Side note one, I'm also assuming you understand short stack poker and that you'll often be put in awkward spots playing a 50 BB stack and especially a 30 BB stack in EP with aggro players behind where it doesn't make much sense to call of 1/3 of your stack just to see a flop and then fold. You need to be comfortable shoving your short stack in several scenarios and you should have an idea of who is 3 betting and what range against Hero after 2 hours.
Side note two, is the table using Plexiglas? Masks? Gloves? Sanitizer? Or have restrictions been eased there?
gustav197poker, ArtsyB, johnsulliv liked this post
Thank you so much for your reply, helps a lot my thought process.
All of your assumptions happen to be spot on, sounds like you were at the table . I think the "first time" effect and slight tilt mixed with a bit of pressure rushed my decision to jam there. Even though *spoiler* it ended up being a coin flip with V calling with ATo, and hitting his ace on the river.
I played the hand in my head about a hundred times now in all different ways possible. The flop was J73 rainbow, turn 2, river Ace. I've been thinking that if I just call, I would have faced a c-bet 80% of the time, call once, check-check on the turn (if I'm lucky), and face a bet that would put me all in on the river. So I could have saved a few bucks instead of losing my whole stack, but not much difference.
I didn't think of folding as an option on the moment, thinking that it was my last hand and felt a bit gambly... Next time I will consider it for sure!
On you side note 1: yes I was aware that buying in at 50bb was not so wise but rather a compromise to have a first feel of a live game. I have been more of a micro stakes online tournament player so pretty aware of the short stack play but not so much in a cash game environment, let alone live.. This was obviously a big step up for me and I took quite a risk but I got what I wanted, a first experience, and I'm learning from it! Thanks to you
On your side note 2: Yes, all protective measures you mentioned were in place there except gloves. Gel available for players arriving/returning to the table, seats/plexiglass disinfected between each players, as well as all the dealer's equipment when changing dealers.
Again thanks a lot and looking forward to hear more thoughts from other players on this as well!
If he's 3 betting your UTG open with ATo then I'm going to venture to say you were indeed being targeted. This is fairly out of line and can look like spew but it could actually be a decent exploitative play at a weak passive table. At a stronger table he will be hanging himself out to dry too often to other players behind who will wake up with a hand, notice his wide 3 bet range, and play back at him or at least call in position. At this table he's able to get it heads up often or even win the pot out right by 3 betting so he's actually correct to keep 3 betting until the table adjusts. As such, I think this makes your shove more acceptable because if he's doing this with ATo from UTG+1 it's probably NOT the bottom of his 3 bet range. As soon as you start running into hands like 77 or 88 your shove becomes profitable even though it doesn't have much fold equity. Your second post also implies he indeed could have some 3 bet bluffs like suited connectors or suited wheel aces as an exploit. Eventually you'll need to take a stand against this type of player who has position on you all night or he will continue to make it hard for you all session and you'll only be able to play a very predictable and super tight range. In the future you should also consider a seat change or table change if you notice you're being targeted and you don't know how to adjust.
Your suggestion to flat 1/3 of your stack pre, x/c the flop, and hope for a x/x turn, just so you can fold river and save a few BBs is really exactly what your V wants you to do. It allows him to see all 5 cards to catch up when he's behind and it allows him to bet you off of the best hand often. Imagine the river is a K instead of an Ace and he bets. You still fold the best hand. It also will lead to him losing the minimum and you losing the maximum more often. Playing passive poker is generally not as good as being aggressive unless you are trapping an aggressive player or drawing with correct equity against a station. You will have to hand read and make tons of difficult decisions and being new to live play your live reads likely will lead to some mistakes. Your line against this guy is better than flatting pre to x/c flop and then fold if he bets any over card. Another alternate line could be to limp / call pre (unless the pot is 3 bet) and x/r that flop as it's one of the best flops you can hope for short of hitting a 9 or flopping an over pair.
One last point on hand reading. It's not just what you do when you play live, it's how you do it. I suspect that when you jammed you may have showed some weakness or frustration. Maybe V calls anyway but if you confidently insta-4 bet jam he will have to at least consider folding ATo to a tight UTG player. If you are visibly uncomfortable however and showing some signs of tilt / frustration as you alluded to it makes his call much easier. This guy has folded JJ to the 4 bet so folding ATo to an UTG 4 bet jam should also be possible even for this short stack if you aren't giving off any signs of weakness. I wouldn't beat myself up about this hand. You got it in on a coin flip vs a wide range. Had he missed the river this hand probably has the effect of slowing down and narrowing his 3 bet range going forward since he knows you have a 4 bet range and it can be as light as 99. You are telling him, "I know you're 3 betting me light, so I'm going to 4 bet you light". With your larger stack now he will have to have a little more respect.
Man I miss live poker lol. Good luck on the next session.
Given postions and stack sizes I think, 99 has to fold to the 3-bet. As has already been said, with 30BB there is not really any room to just call and play postflop, and especially not with a hand like 99, where some of the value comes from implied odds when flopping a set, and where we often get bluffed out of the pot, when we dont. So its either jam or fold, and his range should not be wide enough to profitably jam, even though it actually was this time.
I also think, the live dynamics was a very important factor in this hand. I have never played live poker, but a family member has been a dealer. And he said, that its very common, that the new or losing players buy in short, presumably because they dont have money. Like you say this was "a big step up" and a "big risk" for you. And then they get massively pushed around by the big stacks, who are usually experienced winning players.
So when you buy in short, you might as well put a sign on your back saying "hey I am the target, please go after me". I guess, that can be turned into a profitable situation, if you play the role well, but personally I would prefer to not be attacked, since it makes life a whole lot easier at the poker table. For instance I would have preferred the ATo to just fold here, so that maybe I could get to play a small pot in position with the player in the big blind, or even just pick up the blinds uncontested.