2 pair

Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
FlopTurnRiver seems to be down at the moment but hopefully this is sort of readable. So what's your move here - lay down, all-in, or call?

Opponent is fairly loose (33%) but seems a reasonable player.

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.50 NL (real money), hand #869,019,733
Table New Orleans, 18 Aug 2006 3:03 PM ET

Seat 1: Bombjack_x [ 8H,9H ] ($14.80 in chips)
Seat 2: sdac ($24.75 in chips)
Seat 3: Reapsta23 ($16.30 in chips)
Seat 4: Hampe04 ($22.85 in chips)
Seat 5: CBarna ($14.90 in chips)
Seat 6: OptimusPr1me ($51.80 in chips)
Seat 7: elektraX1 ($23.95 in chips)
Seat 8: Goofey12 ($40.20 in chips)
Seat 9: RVennu ($34.60 in chips)
Seat 10: montrealfan1 ($28.05 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
sdac posts blind ($0.15), Reapsta23 posts blind ($0.25).

PRE-FLOP
Hampe04 folds,
CBarna calls $0.25,
OptimusPr1me folds,
elektraX1 folds,
Goofey12 calls $0.25,
RVennu folds,
montrealfan1 folds,
Bombjack_x calls $0.25,
sdac calls $0.10,
Reapsta23 checks.

FLOP [board cards 8C,2C,5S ]
sdac checks,
Reapsta23 checks,
CBarna checks,
Goofey12 bets $0.50,
Bombjack_x bets $1.50,
sdac folds,
Reapsta23 calls $1.50,
CBarna folds,
Goofey12 folds.

TURN [board cards 8C,2C,5S,9S ]
Reapsta23 checks,
Bombjack_x bets $3,
Reapsta23 bets $8,
Bombjack_x....
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
I doubt if he has a set since you have two of the cards he needs. Probably something like ace-8. I think a push is in order here, you have top two pair with no possible made flush or straight yet. Only hand that beats you right now factoring the betting so far is pocket 5's (possibly pocket 8's, but since you have one I doubt it), go for it if he has a set he just beat you fair and square, if not make him pay for any other weaker holding and hope he doesn't suck out.

I would be interested in knowing what he had.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
So consensus seems to be to raise (which would be all-in), which I did.

I actually put him on a club flush draw

Here's what happened:

TURN [board cards 8C,2C,5S,9S ]
Reapsta23 checks,
Bombjack_x bets $3,
Reapsta23 bets $8,
Bombjack_x bets $10.05 and is all-in,
Reapsta23 bets $6.55 and is all-in.

RIVER [board cards 8C,2C,5S,9S,7H ]

SHOWDOWN
Reapsta23 shows [ 6S,7C ]
Bombjack_x shows [ 8H,9H ]
Reapsta23 wins $31.85.

I think this was one of those hands I was destined to go bust on.
 
PocketMG

PocketMG

Rock Star
hey.....

what a shame mate..but theres not much you could do there seing though u called preflop and hitting what u did...very hard to fold 2 top pairs... i definetely couldnt.

cheers
 
gordo30

gordo30

Rock Star
yeah m8 these hands are meat and drink for the limit players you did exactly all you could and hoped for the right card to fall but this time was not for you. Think back on the time,s the right card hit or it was you on the stright or flush draw.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
The right thing to do was fold.. holding top pair with a weak kicker, no draws on the flop against a flush draw. Not saying that 8,9 isn't a hand to play but also there was only 2 players in the hand when you called. The only thing you had going was position while trying to represent strength.

Even though I have to correctly admit that the villian called for the wrong odds on his straight draw.. One can't add runner runner flush draw for his hands cause that would be a possiblity for you.

This was a dangerous hand from the flop, if you were going to mess with it, you should have messed with it harder on the flop and bet stronger.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Some interesting points for discussion Twizzy.

The right thing to do was fold.. holding top pair with a weak kicker, no draws on the flop against a flush draw.
Fold top pair on the flop to a bluff or smaller pair (what the second limper had - he folded when I raised), and a draw that probably doesn't even exist? Sounds weak-tight to me.

Not saying that 8,9 isn't a hand to play but also there was only 2 players in the hand when you called. The only thing you had going was position while trying to represent strength.
I'd be up against at least 3 others with the big blind in, and no-one's shown any strength. Harrington (Vol 1 p. 195) says with 3 limpers from the button you're in great shape and should call with all suited connectors down to 5-4. He doesn't say what to do with 2 limpers, but the pot alone is offering me 3.5:1 on my bet, not counting implied odds. I didn't just want to represent strength from the button... you're never going to have the best hand pre-flop with 8-9 if anyone holds a ten or better. It's dependent on hitting a good flop, as with all suited connector hands.

One can't add runner runner flush draw for his hands cause that would be a possiblity for you.
He wouldn't need runner runner if he has 2 clubs in his hand?

This was a dangerous hand from the flop, if you were going to mess with it, you should have messed with it harder on the flop and bet stronger.
I made a pot-sized bet, which is quite strong. Are you suggesting an overbet? If he's on a draw I want him to call with incorrect odds, which is why I don't just go all-in. Plus I'm risking fewer chips if anyone has a stronger hand like a set. If I were re-raised here I'd have to throw it away, but there's no reason to think I don't have the best hand on the flop.

When the first bettor has folded and I'm left against the Big Blind, he could have any 2 cards. He caught some part of the flop or is on a draw, which is why he called the flop raise (elaborate bluff planning unlikely at this level). With 2 clubs on the flop it's much easier to imagine he has 2 clubs, and in fact this is much more likely from the number of card combinations than holding exactly 6-7:

Chance he has 2 clubs is 11/47*10/46 = 5.1%.
Chance he has 6-7 is 8/47*4/46 = 1.48%

So flush draw is over 3 times more likely than the straight draw.

Chance he has 22 or 33 is 2*(3/47*2/46) = 0.56%

Plus in the situtation where he has called holding top pair or 2 pair, and has 2 pair by the turn.

Chance he has any given 2-pair hand is 6/47*3/46 = 0.83%
There are 4 of these hands (8-2, 8-5, 5-2 or 8-9) making the chance him holding one 3.3% - over twice as likely as 6-7.

I have to bet the turn with my 2 pair to protect against the flush draw. When he raises, the pot is at $15.75, it's $5 to call and I have $10.05 left. The raise decreases likelihood of flush draw (although I've seen all-ins in this situation) so he's on either 2 pair, a straight, or trips. 2 pair (3.3%) is more likely from the above than straight or trips (2.0%), and I beat any other 2 pair, so I think a raise is correct. We'd presumably be all-in on the river whatever happens, so I might as well put it all in now.

There's also an outside chance he's been slow-playing a high pair, which I beat.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Fold top pair on the flop to a bluff or smaller pair (what the second limper had - he folded when I raised), and a draw that probably doesn't even exist? Sounds weak-tight to me.

It is said that the flop defines your hand. That is because after the flop your hand will be 71 percent complete. In your case it isn't even close to being completed.
If the flop does not fit your hand by giving you top pair, or better or a straight or flush draw, then you should fold if there is a bet in front of you. If you played a small pair from late position and you do not flop a third one to make a set you should throw the pair away if there is a bet.
Again in this case, there was a bet in front of you. This is the diffrence from me and you. You will bet, me I want 8,9 to come on the flop so I can represent more then top pair weak kicker. I honestly don't want to be up against K,8 and/or even A,8. Now weak cause I don't give alot of action on the flop unless I have something. That works to my advantage as well when people are paying attention. That means somewhere down the line I can use 8,9 and bet on the flop to take it down. Along with betting with 10,2 suited I limped in wit a flush draw showing on the board to take it down. I am going to be damned if I am going to give you money to try to make my hand, I want it to be reversed and have you give me money to try to make yours.

I'd be up against at least 3 others with the big blind in, and no-one's shown any strength. Harrington (Vol 1 p. 195) says with 3 limpers from the button you're in great shape and should call with all suited connectors down to 5-4. He doesn't say what to do with 2 limpers, but the pot alone is offering me 3.5:1 on my bet, not counting implied odds. I didn't just want to represent strength from the button... you're never going to have the best hand pre-flop with 8-9 if anyone holds a ten or better. It's dependent on hitting a good flop, as with all suited connector hands.

Yes and is Harrington always right? Nope.. His book is just like anybody elses, guidelines. I rather have more in the flop or put more money into the pot with connectors especially when 2 are only limping. I may even get the blinds to fold with a raise here. I definately want money in this pot especially for the times the cards do miss. I don't want to win some rinky dink pot especially when my hand isn't made after the flop. There is a diffrence from being aggresive and being crazy.

He wouldn't need runner runner if he has 2 clubs in his hand?
now magically you think he is on a flush draw? Quote"A draw that doesn't even exsist" Either the draw exsists or it don't.

I made a pot-sized bet, which is quite strong. Are you suggesting an overbet? If he's on a draw I want him to call with incorrect odds, which is why I don't just go all-in. Plus I'm risking fewer chips if anyone has a stronger hand like a set. If I were re-raised here I'd have to throw it away, but there's no reason to think I don't have the best hand on the flop.
this was allready agreed apon.. incorrect odds to call.. I never said any diffrently.. Plenty of reason why you don't think you have best hand, it is called a stronger kicker, if you can't put in the blinds aresenal of a stronger kicker especially after his call. Then by all means think you have the best hand. A,8 and K,8 is and will be a possibility.Then you forgot the possibility of the good reason why the blind called besides his incorrect odds, could think you are bluffing(stealing the pot cause of your position).

When the first bettor has folded and I'm left against the Big Blind, he could have any 2 cards. He caught some part of the flop or is on a draw, which is why he called the flop raise (elaborate bluff planning unlikely at this level). With 2 clubs on the flop it's much easier to imagine he has 2 clubs, and in fact this is much more likely from the number of card combinations than holding exactly 6-7:

quote again from you "a draw that doesn't even exsist"

So the rest you just factored up now, we can say actually say that. I am sure all those figures went through your head while thinking "a draw doesn't even exsist"

There's also an outside chance he's been slow-playing a high pair, which I beat.
this would be his own foolishess for not betting out pre-flop, nobody but him to blame here if indeed he was playing a higher pair.

The moral is: You tried to represent TPTK because of your position, the guy in the blind didn't believe you so he called. Yet the guy(s) who folded believed you had a higher kicker. Then again you could also be trying to represent a flush draw and bet on it yourself.


 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Thanks for the feedback Twizzy.

In your case it isn't even close to being completed.

I have top pair. Admittedly not a great kicker and it's not exactly what I was aiming for (i.e. straights or flushes) but probably the best at this point, so it is in a sense complete. This may well be strong enough to win the pot at showdown if I can narrow the field, and there are many less complete hands out there - e.g. anyone who's limped in with AJ, KQ or such like.

You tried to represent TPTK because of your position, the guy in the blind didn't believe you so he called. Yet the guy(s) who folded believed you had a higher kicker.


I wasn't actually trying to represent TPTK. Just making a decent bet with top pair. There have been three checks before him, and the middle position guy makes a weak bet with only one person left to act. I've seen people bet before with a lot less than TPTK or even TPSK! :eek: It could be an attempt to buy the pot cheaply using his position, or he may have something, maybe pocket 6s or A5, or it may well be a block-bet / value bet on a flush draw. I don't think we can assume he has one of the two remaining 8s with a kicker higher than a 9. If he did, he should certainly make a bigger bet than this as he doesn't want higher cards coming on the turn or river.
Even if the one or both of the other 8s were dealt out, personally I'd have folded almost any hand with an 8 in it pre-flop, K8 and A8 included (unless the A8 is suited or I have 78 or 89 suited in late position in a cheap multi-way pot), so if people play anything like me, it's unlikely there's another 8 in anyone's hand.

If the flop does not fit your hand by giving you top pair, or better or a straight or flush draw, then you should fold if there is a bet in front of you. If you played a small pair from late position and you do not flop a third one to make a set you should throw the pair away if there is a bet.

I agree... also depends though how many players there are in the pot and how aggressive they are. Here I did have top pair and quite probably the best hand. If you think you have the best hand, it's a good idea in the long run to raise. Also, we need to cut down the pot odds for any drawers out there. I must at least call this bet - 50c into a pot of $1.75 means I only need to be 29% to win the pot to call (and I'm certainly not 71% sure I'm losing) - but if I just call then the players who checked get odds to draw out, so I think it's correct to raise here.

Yes and is Harrington always right?

Of course, it's the Bible! :) Seriously though, people say it's the best book on NL Hold'em in existence so I take his advice.

I may even get the blinds to fold with a raise here. I definately want money in this pot especially for the times the cards do miss. I don't want to win some rinky dink pot especially when my hand isn't made after the flop.

I think you're joking here... aren't you? With suited connectors you want see the flop as cheaply as possible, as they're speculative and work well in multi-way pots. So you don't actually want to force out the blinds.

Plenty of reason why you don't think you have best hand, it is called a stronger kicker, if you can't put in the blinds aresenal of a stronger kicker especially after his call.
Well, it is possible that the blind holds A8 or K8 - unlikely though since he checked before me - but it doesn't matter since on the turn I would beat this with my 2 pair.

quote again from you "a draw that doesn't even exsist"
I said I'm up against "draw that probably doesn't even exist". Given the range of cards that people can be dealt, it's very probable that none of my opponents holds 2 clubs. For 1 opponent it's 5.1%. So against 4 opponents there's an 81% probability that none has 2 clubs (in fact slightly higher since people are more likely to play suited cards).
I don't think I understood your first statement "no draws on the flop against a flush draw" properly - I think you mean I have no draws to a flush, but I thought you meant I had no draws to beat someone on a flush draw (i.e. a full house from trips). The point of my reply being that you probably don't need to be able to beat a flush if another club comes up. Although you need to give people bad odds by betting just in case.

So the rest you just factored up now, we can say actually say that. I am sure all those figures went through your head while thinking "a draw doesn't even exsist"
Without other information, i.e. when I bet on the flop, there is probably no-one on a flush or straight draw, as discussed above. Given that he's called, it's more likely than before that he is on some sort of draw, and if he is on a draw, it's more likely to be a flush draw than a straight draw as I showed in my previous post. And it's more likely that his raise indicates 2 pair rather than a straight. I'm not some sort of genius who can work out these %ages in my head in 5 seconds - I'm using this thread as a post-mortem to work out the %ages in this situation, so maybe I'll have a better idea of how to deal with it in future. I think overall I played it correctly although I'm completely open to well-informed criticism. :)
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
I'll skip the rest and answer this question.

I think you're joking here... aren't you? With suited connectors you want see the flop as cheaply as possible, as they're speculative and work well in multi-way pots. So you don't actually want to force out the blinds.
no joke here, reason being I like to treat it as A,K for the times it misses and somebody calls with Ax and Kx. In this scenario you allready have 3 limpers we shall give you that. I want more money in the pot cause since I don't have more players in the pot. I want just as much money in the pot or more, besides again you have the position to do this with.
This way you now established power with your position and possibly the blind won't call your re-raise and actually fold. Also multi-way means to me, yes I know 3 people is multi-way but to me it means to me 4-6 people in the pot. Which is why I like more money in the pot here for those other 1-3 people that aren't in the pot as well.

But to reiterate what I am saying, how many times have we all played suited connectors to have them miss? I would say quite a lot, so a raise wouldn't be a bad idea and have these others help pay for the time the suited connectors miss. I am not saying I would do this everytime I get suited connectors, but I do play them this way occasionally.

So when suited connectors don't pay off, I try to help them along when they do pay off.

One doesn't always have to be aggresive just only with the top 10-15 pre-flop starting hands.

And remember we don't always have to play by the book, because all books on the market are guidelines, not law or rules that one "must" do it this way or that way.

If there was then the game would be boring.
 
Top