$2 NL HE Full Ring: PF 3bet and triple shove on flop, call or fold?

[Ace of Spad3s]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

Hey guys,

I am looking for some feedback on the hand posted below, did I take the correct line? Did I make any mistakes? Any feedback is welcome really so I can learn from it for future use.

Reads on my opponents:
BB: Almost no reads on this player to be honest, I was a bit in the dark here.
UTG: Not a player who's scared to get it all in, made large raises and a few all-ins without the nuts or even on second pair etc.
HJ: Quite the loose and aggressive player. I've seen him make large PF raises and 3bets while holding junk or marginal hands and shove on the flop. I put him on a very wide 3bet range.

Pre-flop: Seeing as i'm OOP in the LJ I called the UTG raise instead of a 3bet, see if I could get a cheap flop and take it from there. HJ 3bets a tad large like I've seen him do before so I make the call, especially after getting great odds with the BB and UTG callers.

Flop: Checks to me so I raise it about 30% of the pot. Seeing as I got 2 over cards and a nut flush draw, i'm looking to build the pot. What happens next kind off took me by surprise as every opponent shoves. I figure I'd have 15 outs, so a call would make 54.1% of hitting by the river. I know that's close to a coin flip, but seeing as I got 2 players with a read and the opportunity to more than triple up my stack, I made the call thinking this would be profitable in the long run. Was my thinking correct? I'll post runout later on. Thanks in advance!

GGPoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 ($0.01 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $3.63 (182 bb)
UTG+1: $3.17 (159 bb)
MP: $4.12 (206 bb)
MP+1 (Hero): $3.13 (157 bb)
LP: $1.71 (86 bb)
CO: $4.00 (200 bb)
BU: $5.01 (251 bb)
SB: $5.43 (272 bb)
BB: $2.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.12) Hero is MP+1 with Q♠ A♠
UTG raises to $0.06, 2 players fold, Hero calls $0.06, LP 3-bets to $0.36, 3 players fold, BB calls $0.34, UTG calls $0.30, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.54) 8♠ 4♦ 5♠ (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.51, LP raises to $1.34 (all-in), BB raises to $1.63 (all-in), UTG raises to $3.26 (all-in), Hero calls $2.25 (all-in)

 

[Aballinamion]

Hey guys,

I am looking for some feedback on the hand posted below, did I take the correct line? Did I make any mistakes? Any feedback is welcome really so I can learn from it for future use.

Reads on my opponents:
BB: Almost no reads on this player to be honest, I was a bit in the dark here.
UTG: Not a player who's scared to get it all in, made large raises and a few all-ins without the nuts or even on second pair etc.
HJ: Quite the loose and aggressive player. I've seen him make large PF raises and 3bets while holding junk or marginal hands and shove on the flop. I put him on a very wide 3bet range.

Pre-flop: Seeing as i'm OOP in the LJ I called the UTG raise instead of a 3bet, see if I could get a cheap flop and take it from there. HJ 3bets a tad large like I've seen him do before so I make the call, especially after getting great odds with the BB and UTG callers.

Flop: Checks to me so I raise it about 30% of the pot. Seeing as I got 2 over cards and a nut flush draw, i'm looking to build the pot. What happens next kind off took me by surprise as every opponent shoves. I figure I'd have 15 outs, so a call would make 54.1% of hitting by the river. I know that's close to a coin flip, but seeing as I got 2 players with a read and the opportunity to more than triple up my stack, I made the call thinking this would be profitable in the long run. Was my thinking correct? I'll post runout later on. Thanks in advance!

GGPoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 ($0.01 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $3.63 (182 bb)
UTG+1: $3.17 (159 bb)
MP: $4.12 (206 bb)
MP+1 (Hero): $3.13 (157 bb)
LP: $1.71 (86 bb)
CO: $4.00 (200 bb)
BU: $5.01 (251 bb)
SB: $5.43 (272 bb)
BB: $2.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.12) Hero is MP+1 with Q♠ A♠
UTG raises to $0.06, 2 players fold, Hero calls $0.06, LP 3-bets to $0.36, 3 players fold, BB calls $0.34, UTG calls $0.30, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.54) 8♠ 4♦ 5♠ (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.51, LP raises to $1.34 (all-in), BB raises to $1.63 (all-in), UTG raises to $3.26 (all-in), Hero calls $2.25 (all-in)

We are calling this just 99.9% of times mate! Our odds are fantastic against anything villains could be holding.
I’m not making any calculations, because I’m working now and in a hurry, but we have to invest give or take 100 BB in order to win 600 BB having 54% equity? Yes, we are in.

 

[Ace of Spad3s]

Yeah I figured as much, hence the call. I'm just wondering if I was correct in seeing my A and Q as outs, seeing as there might be sets on the flop here. Maybe only the 9 nutflush spades are outs, but then it would still be profitable, wouldn't it? Any feedback on the pre-flop action and bet sizing on the flop?

 

[Station_Master]

3bet pre and dont donk flip, check raise instead.

As played you are going to have the equity to call

 

[georgi krastev]

Actualy i don't like that call on the flop, but implied odds justify it.

 

[Ace of Spad3s]

Actualy i don't like that call on the flop, but implied odds justify it.

What line would you have taken in this hand and why?

 

[Aballinamion]

What line would you have taken in this hand and why?

Preflop is fine. We can call and 3-bet. Lesser times we are folding.

 

[georgi krastev]

To say that pre-flop is ok. But after the flop I would personally check, since I have one big nothing (i.e. I'm very seriously behind), ( my outs are only 3 queens, 3 aces, that i don't know where they are (whether they are still in the game), and also the remaining spades, ). In addition, there are 3bet, i would like to see his action. I'd make that donk bet (on the flop) if I had anything, or at least check/raise. (If the 3betor shove, in case if you check to him, there is always option for fold (and it is unknown what the others will do), imo, but the risk is justified, as I said above, it's still a cash game, not a tournament...)

This bloated multi way pot is very appetizing (I totally understand why you played like that), but the way I look at it you were up against all sorts of fish... Just look at their play: they just jammed the flop - two of them with pocket 99's, the other with 57 suit... Awesome!!!

This type of player is (very likely) not bluffable. Personally, I prefer to have something, and only then to bet against such players... But the money is yours, you play your game, I'm just saying what I don't like...

 

[Aballinamion]

To say that pre-flop is ok. But after the flop I would personally check, since I have one big nothing (i.e. I'm very seriously behind), ( my outs are only 3 queens, 3 aces, that i don't know where they are (whether they are still in the game), and also the remaining spades, ). In addition, there are 3bet, i would like to see his action. I'd make that donk bet (on the flop) if I had anything, or at least check/raise. (If the 3betor shove, in case if you check to him, there is always option for fold (and it is unknown what the others will do), imo, but the risk is justified, as I said above, it's still a cash game, not a tournament...)

This bloated multi way pot is very appetizing (I totally understand why you played like that), but the way I look at it you were up against all sorts of fish... Just look at their play: they just jammed the flop - two of them with pocket 99's, the other with 57 suit... Awesome!!!

This type of player is (very likely) not bluffable. Personally, I prefer to have something, and only then to bet against such players... But the money is yours, you play your game, I'm just saying what I don't like...

The same idea mate: OTF we can check and we can bet, both are valid lines. 😃
The times we hit the flush we collect over 300 BB at once, this is a singular spot, not a single raised pot.

 

[georgi krastev]

collect over 300 BB at once

I hope the OP to have a nice bakroll for cases like this...

 

[Aballinamion]

I hope the OP to have a nice bakroll for cases like this...

15-30 buy-ins should suffice to enter spots like this. We should never play based on results, or because our balance/bankroll is too small or too big: we make mistakes thinking this way.
We must let the chips fall as they may, be certain and accept losses as much as we can but having in mind that when we clicked the button to raise or call a jam, we were ahead at least 51% of times: that’s all need to breakeven, in the long run this 1% will scream as a huge number.
It seems nothing but ask the companies that distribute debit/credit machines: they win only 1% of sellings, but there are millions of sellings.
Thus we must play as much as possible without worries. If we lose our balance/bankroll we make a deposit, we play freerolls, whatever: the only thing that matters is to make the best move given specific scenario.

Thanks for your attention and for this debate.

 

[Ace of Spad3s]

Thanks guys for the reply's, gave me some good insights!

 

[BigKulpPoker]

Actualy i don't like that call on the flop, but implied odds justify it.

everyone was allin, no such thing as implied odds at that point.

 

[BigKulpPoker]

Pre-flop: Seeing as i'm OOP in the LJ I called the UTG raise instead of a 3bet, see if I could get a cheap flop and take it from there. HJ 3bets a tad large like I've seen him do before so I make the call, especially after getting great odds with the BB and UTG callers.

I'm not against trapping and seeing flops with premium hands, and use my ability to out play people on the flop and in multiway pots. That being said, that's a strategy that should typically only be employed if you're the best or 2nd best flop player at the table.

Most will say you should 3bet preflop. If you do 3bet preflop, chances are you are not OOP. But at these stakes I assume people over call 3bets like no tomorrow.

 

[georgi krastev]

everyone was allin, no such thing as implied odds at that point.

Well, https://www.cardschat.com/wp-conten...ing-Poker-Player-in-30-Days-CardChat.com_.pdf

If there is no such thing, why Hero make that call?

 

[Ace of Spad3s]

Well, https://www.cardschat.com/wp-conten...ing-Poker-Player-in-30-Days-CardChat.com_.pdf

If there is no such thing, why Hero make that call?

I think what he means is there are no implied odds as there will be no future betting rounds in that specific hand, nothing to speculate on. Therefore no 'implied' odds. There are just the odds on the table, call or fold.

 

[Ace of Spad3s]

I'm not against trapping and seeing flops with premium hands, and use my ability to out play people on the flop and in multiway pots. That being said, that's a strategy that should typically only be employed if you're the best or 2nd best flop player at the table.

Most will say you should 3bet preflop. If you do 3bet preflop, chances are you are not OOP. But at these stakes I assume people over call 3bets like no tomorrow.

Yeah I usually would have 3bet AQs there, but the guy on my left was 3-betting left right and centre so I kind of wanted to avoid getting into a tough 4-bet spot OOP.. having to fold or make a call on that or call a 4bet shove preflop wasn't my intention.

 

[BigKulpPoker]

Yeah I usually would have 3bet AQs there, but the guy on my left was 3-betting left right and centre so I kind of wanted to avoid getting into a tough 4-bet spot OOP.. having to fold or make a call on that or call a 4bet shove preflop wasn't my intention.

Here's a less understood concept. The more people who see a flop, the less often you have to win the pot for it to be profitable................................Win the small pot often, or the very large pot less often.