$2 NL HE Full Ring: Is C-Betting the Flop w/ the Nuts Against These Villains Correct?

[PockerGod]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

Firstly, did I play PF correctly? Should I have used different a different bet size?

Both of the flop villains had very high vpip stats but had too small of a sample size to take any stats accurately!

I decided not to slow play the hand because I was worried about another spade that could give someone a flush. Should I have used a smaller bet size than 2/3 pot? Should I have slow played the flop and hoped that 1 of them bluffed the turn?


Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

Woodgrand (UTG): $2.41 (121 bb)
OjotheLucky (UTG+1): $1.92 (96 bb)
vtabiggie (MP): $14.00 (700 bb)
Mo90 (MP+1): $1.45 (73 bb)
Chimpin (LP): $4.48 (224 bb)
QBraids (CO): $3.21 (161 bb)
02master (BU): $3.01 (151 bb)
RascalBurrito (SB): $0.59 (30 bb)
PockerGod (BB): $2.84 (142 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (PockerGod) is BB with K♥ K♣
1 fold, OjotheLucky (UTG+1) raises to $0.06, 1 fold, Mo90 (MP+1) calls $0.06, 2 players fold, 02master (BU) calls $0.06, 1 fold, PockerGod (BB) 3-bets to $0.32, OjotheLucky (UTG+1) calls $0.26, Mo90 (MP+1) calls $0.26, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.03) 6♠ 7♠ K♦ (3 players)
PockerGod (BB) bets $0.67, 2 players fold

Total pot: $1.03 (Rake: $0.05)
PockerGod (BB) wins $0.98

 

[Station_Master]

If you are going to cbet then I would go smaller with top set. As you are oop you could check too as someone might bet flop for you

 

[PockerGod]

Do you think a smaller bet like 1/3 pot is right?

 

[Station_Master]

Do you think a smaller bet like 1/3 pot is right?

Yes 1/3rd or check

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Standard 3-bet and sizing looks fine.

Flop
The stack to pot ratio is only 1,1 against MP+1 and 1,6 against UTG+1. With such a small SPR, there is no real need to bet the flop, since you can easily get the money in by betting turn and river, if they check behind. And if you are going to bet, you cant go 2/3 pot, because that will already commit them to the pot. So any hand, you want to bet here, should go really small like maybe 25-30% pot. You need to leave them room to call now and fold later. Or raise you as a bluff, because they think, a small bet looks weak.

Specifically with top set I prefer a check, because you block a lot of their stack-off ranges, and you have a lot of hands drawing almost dead. Most of the time they have a pocket pair below top pair or A high, and you actually want such hands to catch up by spiking a worse set or top pair on the turn, because then you can stack them. Whereas when you start out with this big bet, hands like JJ or AQs (except of spades) will just fold and play perfect by doing so. Basically you are only getting action to this large bet, when someone has a flushdraw or the case K.

 

[canbora]

Yeah, you definately bet too much. I recommend a check. But 1/3 pot is fine.

I understand with two other players fearing the spade, and dont forget the straight too, and POSSIBLY even SF. ... but you not only have top set, but Kings. You're hand stands to improve too. You cant count on a SF just like you cant count on quads, so the flush/straight is your real enemy here but more than likely they wont hit and thats even if they have it. PLUS your hand stands to improve too. The board is just as likely to pair and you have a boat.

So yeah, check or 1/3 pot. I would have checked. real those fishies in.

 

[PockerGod]

Preflop
Standard 3-bet and sizing looks fine.

Flop
The stack to pot ratio is only 1,1 against MP+1 and 1,6 against UTG+1. With such a small SPR, there is no real need to bet the flop, since you can easily get the money in by betting turn and river, if they check behind. And if you are going to bet, you cant go 2/3 pot, because that will already commit them to the pot. So any hand, you want to bet here, should go really small like maybe 25-30% pot. You need to leave them room to call now and fold later. Or raise you as a bluff, because they think, a small bet looks weak.

Specifically with top set I prefer a check, because you block a lot of their stack-off ranges, and you have a lot of hands drawing almost dead. Most of the time they have a pocket pair below top pair or A high, and you actually want such hands to catch up by spiking a worse set or top pair on the turn, because then you can stack them. Whereas when you start out with this big bet, hands like JJ or AQs (except of spades) will just fold and play perfect by doing so. Basically you are only getting action to this large bet, when someone has a flushdraw or the case K.

Yeah, that makes sense. I was going back and forth on it. I think I was too worried about them catching up with a flush or straight. Thank you for your input.

 

[PockerGod]

Yeah, you definately bet too much. I recommend a check. But 1/3 pot is fine.

I understand with two other players fearing the spade, and dont forget the straight too, and POSSIBLY even SF. ... but you not only have top set, but Kings. You're hand stands to improve too. You cant count on a SF just like you cant count on quads, so the flush/straight is your real enemy here but more than likely they wont hit and thats even if they have it. PLUS your hand stands to improve too. The board is just as likely to pair and you have a boat.

So yeah, check or 1/3 pot. I would have checked. real those fishies in.

Yeah, I think in Hine sight I would of went for a 1/3 pot size. Thank you

 

[fundiver199]

Yeah, that makes sense. I was going back and forth on it. I think I was too worried about them catching up with a flush or straight. Thank you for your input.

A flushdraw is not going to fold, so if someone has that, the chips are going in regardless. And while they can certainly have a flushdraw, you are in great shape against it with a set. Even if a spade comes at the turn, you still have 10 outs to fill up on the river, so you are never drawing dead. And if it runs out spade-spade, and someone jam the river, its fine to fold.

As for straigthdraws, they really should not be calling a big 3-bet with 98 or 54, so those hands are nothing to worry about at all. And even if they did, you are happy to let them see a turn for the reasons just stated. If you check, its also entirely possible, someone might bet a draw, especially one with no showdown value like the 98 or 54.

So just because, someone could potentially have a draw, does not mean, you need to bomb the pot. Its much more important to maximize value against all those hands like JJ or AQ, which are almost drawing dead. The goal in poker is never to win the pot. The goal is to win money, and if taking the optimal line means, you will suffer a few more bad beats, that should not deter you.

Now I will say, that this is specifically because, you have top set, and because the SPR is so low. With a much higher SPR or with a hand like AA or AK, which dont block top pair as much, I would pretty much always make a C-bet on this flop. But I would still not make it so large. Its rare, that you need to bet large on the flop in a 3-bet pot, especially one thats also multiway.

 

[Aballinamion]

Firstly, did I play PF correctly? Should I have used different a different bet size?

Both of the flop villains had very high vpip stats but had too small of a sample size to take any stats accurately!

I decided not to slow play the hand because I was worried about another spade that could give someone a flush. Should I have used a smaller bet size than 2/3 pot? Should I have slow played the flop and hoped that 1 of them bluffed the turn?


Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

Woodgrand (UTG): $2.41 (121 bb)
OjotheLucky (UTG+1): $1.92 (96 bb)
vtabiggie (MP): $14.00 (700 bb)
Mo90 (MP+1): $1.45 (73 bb)
Chimpin (LP): $4.48 (224 bb)
QBraids (CO): $3.21 (161 bb)
02master (BU): $3.01 (151 bb)
RascalBurrito (SB): $0.59 (30 bb)
PockerGod (BB): $2.84 (142 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (PockerGod) is BB with K♥ K♣
1 fold, OjotheLucky (UTG+1) raises to $0.06, 1 fold, Mo90 (MP+1) calls $0.06, 2 players fold, 02master (BU) calls $0.06, 1 fold, PockerGod (BB) 3-bets to $0.32, OjotheLucky (UTG+1) calls $0.26, Mo90 (MP+1) calls $0.26, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.03) 6♠ 7♠ K♦ (3 players)
PockerGod (BB) bets $0.67, 2 players fold

Total pot: $1.03 (Rake: $0.05)
PockerGod (BB) wins $0.98

You played this hand perfectly. We cannot slow play in situations like this, mostly because we own any blockers/spades on our range. Playing out of position against two other players having the nuts on the flop risking another spade on the turn the most ideal move is to charge it right off the bat and let the chips fall (or not) as they may.

 

[PockerGod]

A flushdraw is not going to fold, so if someone has that, the chips are going in regardless. And while they can certainly have a flushdraw, you are in great shape against it with a set. Even if a spade comes at the turn, you still have 10 outs to fill up on the river, so you are never drawing dead. And if it runs out spade-spade, and someone jam the river, its fine to fold.

As for straigthdraws, they really should not be calling a big 3-bet with 98 or 54, so those hands are nothing to worry about at all. And even if they did, you are happy to let them see a turn for the reasons just stated. If you check, its also entirely possible, someone might bet a draw, especially one with no showdown value like the 98 or 54.

So just because, someone could potentially have a draw, does not mean, you need to bomb the pot. Its much more important to maximize value against all those hands like JJ or AQ, which are almost drawing dead. The goal in poker is never to win the pot. The goal is to win money, and if taking the optimal line means, you will suffer a few more bad beats, that should not deter you.

Now I will say, that this is specifically because, you have top set, and because the SPR is so low. With a much higher SPR or with a hand like AA or AK, which dont block top pair as much, I would pretty much always make a C-bet on this flop. But I would still not make it so large. Its rare, that you need to bet large on the flop in a 3-bet pot, especially one thats also multiway.

I feel like I struggle the most in 3 bet pots a lot more. If I were to check, then someone did raise, would you consider re-raising or just calling?

 

[PockerGod]

You played this hand perfectly. We cannot slow play in situations like this, mostly because we own any blockers/spades on our range. Playing out of position against two other players having the nuts on the flop risking another spade on the turn the most ideal move is to charge it right off the bat and let the chips fall (or not) as they may.

Would you have used the 2/3 pot sizing that I used?

 

[SrMartis]

Hello buddy!

Why are you worrying to much about the bet sizing?

The hand is well played.

In this limit there's no reason to hold back, specially if you don't have information about these guys.

They probably had nothing in their hands.

 

[PockerGod]

Hello buddy!

Why are you worrying to much about the bet sizing?

The hand is well played.

In this limit there's no reason to hold back, specially if you don't have information about these guys.

They probably had nothing in their hands.

Hey buddy, so to answer your question, I try not to worry about the stakes because I plan on moving up and am using this situation as a vessel to see how better players would approach this scenario in their respective stakes. I do not think the simple answer of "you played it correct or incorrect" is valid. Poker is not black and white and different players can have different perspectives on how to play the same hand. I feel like I struggle in 3 bet pots in general and am very interested in how to improve in 3 bet pots. I am just trying to figure out who's advice is good and who's advice is useless, you only find that out with follow up questions. If I believe, based on said follow up questions, that they do not know what they are talking about, then ill discard their information. Also, it was a 3-bet pot with a flush draw so they very well might of had something and folded it. Do you have anything that you could add about the hand or would you of played it exactly like I did?

 

[canbora]

Hey buddy, so to answer your question, I try not to worry about the stakes because I plan on moving up and am using this situation as a vessel to see how better players would approach this scenario in their respective stakes. I do not think the simple answer of "you played it correct or incorrect" is valid. Poker is not black and white and different players can have different perspectives on how to play the same hand. I feel like I struggle in 3 bet pots in general and am very interested in how to improve in 3 bet pots. I am just trying to figure out who's advice is good and who's advice is useless, you only find that out with follow up questions. If I believe, based on said follow up questions, that they do not know what they are talking about, then ill discard their information. Also, it was a 3-bet pot with a flush draw so they very well might of had something and folded it. Do you have anything that you could add about the hand or would you of played it exactly like I did?

Do you feel its the psychology of the 3 bet? Am I understanding that right? If so, don't feel bad. I've mentioned elsewhere that people dont three bet enough despite knowing they shouuld have to. The three bet seems to be ...........very powerful. Unless someone has AA or KK, maybe QQ. It seems to stop people dead in their tracks. AK and JJ are borderline beleive it or not. They aren't snaps to everyone.

I think to most people its the equivilent to being slapped in the face, theyre stunned.

I'm in no way telling you what to do, so take this with a grain of salt but I'd recommend exposure therapy. Just start doing it. If you have a hand that you think you should be entering the pot with, then three bet it. Dont think "oh does the chart say I should three bet this?" nonsense, if you're entering...three bet!

If this is too much, maybe start off micro min 3 betting. But I dont advise that, if you're going to bet then bet. Get "use to it". Because I assure you when you move up its going to happen more and more. Although from the stakes I've played and from what my understanding is, I dont think its happening "enough" even at those levels. but I can assure you its far more common. Thats a fact.

And when you get use to it, it starts to go the other way. When I play now and its a full 8/9 and UTG limps with a solid authority, i just start laughing to myself. Can there possibly BE a more noobish play in all of poker then to limp UTG at a full table??