$2 NL HE 6-max: Is there a call on the river?

iwont20 · Sep 8, 2023

Hello! I decided to play a few hands in zoom cash for the first time since forever yesterday, just to receive a chest, therefore I have no reads, no anything of the additional info. Aside from that the player was from Ukraine. Also since I never play cash, my sizing could be trash for cash games. So what is the river decision? Is this ever a call? Thanks.

pokerstars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players

UTG: $2.00 (100 bb)
MP: $3.49 (175 bb)
CO: $1.08 (54 bb)
BU: $3.10 (155 bb)
SB: $2.89 (145 bb)
BB (Hero): $4.68 (234 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with A♦ 9♥
3 players fold, BTN raises to $0.04, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.02

Flop: ($0.09) A♣ T♥ T♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04

Turn: ($0.17) A♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.06, Hero raises to $0.22, BTN calls $0.16

River: ($0.61) Q♥ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.32, BTN raises to $2.80 (all-in)

gustav197poker · Sep 8, 2023

In my opinion it is a standard game. Preflop you called a min raise with a decent hand. Maybe it was a thin line, because in zoom there are usually closed aperture ranges, but even so BTN preserves combinations that you defeat.
The flop is good and on the turn I think you could raise a bigger size, considering you're out of position and blocking some irrelevant flush draws with your 9h. Another option could be to check/call with your entire range, but on the river it will depend a lot on the texture of the board, if it allows you to get more value. In this case your range is probably more limited when is the third card of heart. Which leaves you with most of the Axes in your possession.
You are only below 5 combos (KJhh, TT, and 3 combos: AQo). I would be calling, although if V is thinking I don't think he has a hand like QQ or Tx.
Greetings.

Aballinamion · Sep 9, 2023

iwont20 said:
Hello! I decided to play a few hands in zoom cash for the first time since forever yesterday, just to receive a chest, therefore I have no reads, no anything of the additional info. Aside from that the player was from Ukraine. Also since I never play cash, my sizing could be trash for cash games. So what is the river decision? Is this ever a call? Thanks.

PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players

UTG: $2.00 (100 bb)
MP: $3.49 (175 bb)
CO: $1.08 (54 bb)
BU: $3.10 (155 bb)
SB: $2.89 (145 bb)
BB (Hero): $4.68 (234 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with A♦ 9♥
3 players fold, BTN raises to $0.04, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.02

Flop: ($0.09) A♣ T♥ T♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04

Turn: ($0.17) A♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.06, Hero raises to $0.22, BTN calls $0.16

River: ($0.61) Q♥ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.32, BTN raises to $2.80 (all-in)

Having no information about villain we should be calling down to the river and see where we are. It’s a dry combination and many players won’t bluff in a spot where there are doubled aces and tens, so if we do keep calling we can have some idea about villain’s range.
We don’t own AT+ for this spot otherwise we would’ve 3-betted preflop. Hands that could raise this turn won’t work it in this scenario such as AQ and AK.

Station_Master · Sep 9, 2023

It's a tough spot as you need put in $2.50 to probably chop and win $0.62. So the pot odds are bad! I say this as I dont think villain is ever bluffing he either has Ax or one of the 5 combos you lose to. If he has 20+ combos of Ax that take this line then it's a call. 4 Ak, 4AJ, 2AT, 3 A9, 4 A8, 4 A7 etc. There are definitely the combos available the question is would he shove them all. At 2NL it's quite likely, as many bad players would think Ax is the nuts, so I would probably call. Against better opponents I would fold.

georgi krastev · Sep 10, 2023

iwont20 said:
So what is the river decision?

Call...

iwont20 said:
Is this ever a call?

You had the 3rd nuts, pure call...

(What is shown by villain, a Royal(?!)

Ace of Spad3s · Sep 10, 2023

AQ, TT, KJh or J8h. Those are the hands you lose to. I think this comes down to your read of the opponent. If he'll take this line on any Ax, it's a call for a probable chop. If any KJ will lure him to this, easy call. Odds of him having KJ or J8 of hearts are slim, and losing to a straight flush or quads of TTTT is just a bad beat in my opinion and i'd take the chance on it.

The hand I'd be most worried about is AQ, it suits his range and his play on the river. It's like he wakes up there. Could hold QQ for that matter though aswell.

All in all, I would usually make the call in this position, unless I have a strong read of opponent having something stronger.

iwont20 · Sep 10, 2023

Well I obviously called, and saw AQ.

But I'm surprised to see that you all support the idea of calling over 100bbs here. Thank you all. I feel better about my call now.

I thought it was pretty obvious he got something with this huge overpush on the river specifically, if he would have wanted to play for a stack with Ax full house, he would do this on the turn too, not just wait for the river to overpush this much.

gustav197poker · Sep 10, 2023

iwont20 said:
Well I obviously called, and saw AQ.

But I'm surprised to see that you all support the idea of calling over 100bbs here. Thank you all. I feel better about my call now.

I thought it was pretty obvious he got something with this huge overpush on the river specifically, if he would have wanted to play for a stack with Ax full house, he would do this on the turn too, not just wait for the river to overpush this much.

If you don't have an idea about your opponent's game, you can't escape in this place in a zoom game. Judging by the stake being played, it could be a mistake to fold this hand on the river.
If you present this same sequence to me at higher stakes things change, but not much.
Based on how you played you don't represent many Axs in your range, since your turn bet was a bit speculative, trying to represent some decent hand but not specifically your real hand.
On the other hand V also doesn't have enough Ax hands because you block a good part of that range.
At the same time, your V should not have Tx and Qx in its range, because that implies that it would be blocking your semi-bluff range.
So against a good V, I would expect to beat hands that have the Kh. And against a standard V of micro stakes I would expect mostly split the pot. But I don't fold without info from the villain.

pentazepam · Sep 10, 2023

gustav197poker said:
If you don't have an idea about your opponent's game, you can't escape in this place in a zoom game. Judging by the stake being played, it could be a mistake to fold this hand on the river.
If you present this same sequence to me at higher stakes things change, but not much.
Based on how you played you don't represent many Axs in your range, since your turn bet was a bit speculative, trying to represent some decent hand but not specifically your real hand.
On the other hand V also doesn't have enough Ax hands because you block a good part of that range.
At the same time, your V should not have Tx and Qx in its range, because that implies that it would be blocking your semi-bluff range.
So against a good V, I would expect to beat hands that have the Kh. And against a standard V of micro stakes I would expect mostly split the pot. But I don't fold without info from the villain.

You clearly overthink this situation. Do you EVER see a bluff here at nanostakes?

iwont20 said:
Hello! I decided to play a few hands in zoom cash for the first time since forever yesterday, just to receive a chest, therefore I have no reads, no anything of the additional info. Aside from that the player was from Ukraine. Also since I never play cash, my sizing could be trash for cash games. So what is the river decision? Is this ever a call? Thanks.

PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players

UTG: $2.00 (100 bb)
MP: $3.49 (175 bb)
CO: $1.08 (54 bb)
BU: $3.10 (155 bb)
SB: $2.89 (145 bb)
BB (Hero): $4.68 (234 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with A♦ 9♥
3 players fold, BTN raises to $0.04, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.02

Flop: ($0.09) A♣ T♥ T♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04

Turn: ($0.17) A♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.06, Hero raises to $0.22, BTN calls $0.16

River: ($0.61) Q♥ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.32, BTN raises to $2.80 (all-in)

You raise the turn and you bet the river. Do you ever see a hand that you beat her if you call? No.

gustav197poker · Sep 10, 2023

pentazepam said:
You clearly overthink this situation. Do you EVER see a bluff here at nanostakes?

You're right, in nanostakes I would do insta call without thinking too much about it.

fundiver199 · Sep 11, 2023

Preflop
Against a BTN minraise I guess, you could throw in A9o as a light 3-bet now and then, but calling is certainly also +EV.

Flop
Dont see any reason to do anything other then check-call with a hand like this, which is either way ahead or way behind.

Turn
Now you have the second nuts and only lose to 1 combo of TT. Given that he bet so small, I think, its fine to check-raise. You are mainly hoping, he has TX and cant fold the obvious second best boat. Some would bring out the Zeebo theorem here and say, you should raise bigger. But on a dubble paired board I dont think, that theorem really holds true anymore, and especially not when the top card is an A. Even a beginner will understand, that you could have an A and might be able to fold a T, if you try to go for stacks or something.

River
Given what I said on the turn, around half pot is perfect here. You are still hoping to get called by a T, who just cant let go of a full house, even its the very obvious second best one. Now however he jam, and this is a pretty big overbet of more than 2 times the size of the pot. This spot suck, and even more so, when you are 155BB deep. You now also lose to AQ and to the royal flush with KJ of hearts, so a total of 5 fat value combos, which have you beat.

I dont think, this is ever a hand worse than yours, so in reality you are calling for a chop. Given the pot odds you need 40% equity to call, which mean, you need to chop 80% of the time. And while he has more than 20 combos of AX in his range, I dont think, AX always play like this. From his perspective he now also need to worry about you potentially having one of those 5 nut combos, which beat AX. So for him to overbet jam AX is essentially turning it into a bluff to try to get you off a chop. And giving himself terrible pot odds to do so.

In top of that there is also rake taken out of the pot. So in reality you need to chop 83% of the time or something to just break even. So I think, I puke and fold here. But if you called it off and lost, I would not beat myself up over it either. It is 2NL, and sometimes people do weird things. So there is also an argument for not making nitty folds and simply chuck it up to a cooler, if he has one of those 5 combos, you lose to. But my preferred desicion is to fold.

fundiver199 · Sep 11, 2023

A few more additional comments about hand reading and player tendencies in the micros. As this whole hand was played out, Hero is very clearly representing an ace. Call preflop, check-call flop, check-raise turn, bet river. On a dubble paired board no hand worse than AAATT does this for value. So when Villain raise the river, he is clearly saying, he can either beat AAATT, or he wants AAATT to fold. Going back to the Zeebo theorem it would generally be an ill adviced move to try to make someone fold AAATT. So what is far more likely here, is, that his massive overbet is for value. Which mean, that he can beat AAATT, if he can hand read at all.

We dont have much info on this opponent, but given, he is from Ukraine, he is most likely some sort of reg. Either he is a new reg building up his first bankroll. Or he is a reg, who lost most of his bankroll at higher stakes, or had to withdraw it to pay his bills, and therefore he has moved back down to 2NL again to rebuild. This mean, we should expect at least some hand reading capabilities. But we should not expect, that this is someone, who attempt to play a perfectly balanced game and might take a hand like QT and turn it into a bluff (blocking TT and AQ). And as a general rule from the micros, when our hand is face up, and our opponent say, they can beat that hand, we can generally just believe them and fold, unless we have a very clear reason not to. Like for instance the opponent being a known maniac.

eetenor · Sep 11, 2023

I just want to agree with what fundiver has stated- their posts are the most accurate and they explained themselves very well. Fundiver's approach to this hand with no reads is the strategy with the highest ROI over time in a 2NL zoom game

fundiver199 · Sep 12, 2023

Just want to add, that neither player should really have the straight flush here. Normally KJ of hearts would be a 12 out draw on a board with AT and two hearts, and it would make sense to play the hand aggressively to get fold equity and build up the pot for the nuts. However in this situation when there is a bet, a raise and a call, KJ of hearts rarely has more than 1 out to a straight flush. So from the Villains perspective he should check back the turn and try to get to showdown. K high has showdown value on a board of AATT, and its a reasonable hand to use to catch some bluffs on the river, beating for instance counterfeited pairs (22-99). And if he did bet and got raised, it should be a snap fold.

Of course we can not rule out completely, that the opponent bet the turn with KJ of hearts and then called a raise, because he just could not get himself to fold a one out draw to the royal flush. But mostly he is representing AQ and TT, which mean, we only lose to 4 realistic combos. Normally I would not advocate folding, when so few combos beat us. But as I said already, this is a very specific board, where its very easy to figure out, what Hero has, and nothing other than AQ or TT makes sense for Villain to play like this.

The hand was also 155BB deep, which is something, you more commonly see at Zoom. And this for me at least makes it a lot easier to get away. If it was 100BB deep, it would only be $1,4 more for Hero to call rather than $2,5, so he would be getting better pot odds, and in my opinion it would also be somewhat more likely, that the opponent might be overplaying another AX, so that Hero can call and chop. But with this extra stack depth in Zoom games more often than not a massive overbet on the river is the pure nuts. Just out of curiosity I would love to hear, what Hero actually did, and if he called the results

pentazepam · Sep 12, 2023

fundiver199 said:
Just out of curiosity I would love to hear, what Hero actually did, and if he called the results

Post 7 in the thread: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/2-nl-he-6-max-there-530201/post-6782766

fundiver199 · Sep 12, 2023

pentazepam said:
Post 7 in the thread: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/2-nl-he-6-max-there-530201/post-6782766

Ok thanks. I had not seen this reveal of results, so it honestly did not impact anything, I have written so far.

iwont20 · Sep 12, 2023

fundiver199 said:
Just want to add, that neither player should really have the straight flush here. Normally KJ of hearts would be a 12 out draw on a board with AT and two hearts, and it would make sense to play the hand aggressively to get fold equity and build up the pot for the nuts. However in this situation when there is a bet, a raise and a call, KJ of hearts rarely has more than 1 out to a straight flush. So from the Villains perspective he should check back the turn and try to get to showdown. K high has showdown value on a board of AATT, and its a reasonable hand to use to catch some bluffs on the river, beating for instance counterfeited pairs (22-99). And if he did bet and got raised, it should be a snap fold.

Of course we can not rule out completely, that the opponent bet the turn with KJ of hearts and then called a raise, because he just could not get himself to fold a one out draw to the royal flush. But mostly he is representing AQ and TT, which mean, we only lose to 4 realistic combos. Normally I would not advocate folding, when so few combos beat us. But as I said already, this is a very specific board, where its very easy to figure out, what Hero has, and nothing other than AQ or TT makes sense for Villain to play like this.

The hand was also 155BB deep, which is something, you more commonly see at Zoom. And this for me at least makes it a lot easier to get away. If it was 100BB deep, it would only be $1,4 more for Hero to call rather than $2,5, so he would be getting better pot odds, and in my opinion it would also be somewhat more likely, that the opponent might be overplaying another AX, so that Hero can call and chop. But with this extra stack depth in Zoom games more often than not a massive overbet on the river is the pure nuts. Just out of curiosity I would love to hear, what Hero actually did, and if he called the results

Thank you, thank you for all the inputs in this thread! 🙏🙌❤️

What you're writing here is pretty much what was going through my head, and I was convinced he has AQ, but out of stubbornness called. And yes, these extra-deep stacks are a big factor too. And that's why all the coaches always say to play only in 100bbs or a bit over, and never in such stacks as in this hand.

fundiver199 · Sep 12, 2023

iwont20 said:
And that's why all the coaches always say to play only in 100bbs or a bit over, and never in such stacks as in this hand.

Not sure if "all the coaches" say that, but there is definitely an argument to be made for avoiding deep stacked play, if you are new to cash games. And in Zoom its actually very easy to "go south". You sit out on the big blind, close the table, and then buy right back in again with a 100BB stack. With that being said 155BB is not that extreme, and as a cash game player you have to get used to such stack sizes sooner or later. But it can certainly be reasonable to "go south", if you get above say 200BB.

I still remember a massive cooler, which happened to me at 10NL Zoom. We were 250BB effective, and LJ (UTG) opened. I called on BTN with TT, and BB called as well. LJ checked, and I checked back for pot control on a board of A53 rainbow. Turn was a wonderfull T, or at least so I thought. On the turn LJ made a delayed C-bet, I raised, BB folded, and now much to my surprice LJ put in a 3-bet. I was like "what the heck does he have" and did not feel great about it, so I just called.

On a blank river he made a massive overbet for the rest of my chips. I kind of wanted to fold but convinced myself, my hand was "to strong". So I called, and of course he had top set with AA, which he had slowplayed on the flop allowing me to catch up. Insanely annoying hand, which cost me 2½ stacks. But honestly looking back at it I could just have folded. Its completely illusional to think, such a line is ever anything other than exactly AA. And in the same way the line, your opponent took here, is almost always going to be AQ or TT.

georgi krastev · Sep 12, 2023

There, players play with a variety of hands for stacks: