$10NL Help with KK

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TheDoc

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Total posts
84
Recently I reviewed my KK hands. The result of 20 hands is dismal:

Won 4 hands raised and picked up blinds
Won 5 small pots
Won 1 all-in preflop against QQ
Won 2 good pots
Lost 2 medium pots, betting out where opponent made pair of aces
Lost 2 all-ins pre-flop where opponent had AA
Lost 1 medium pot where opponent flopped set of Jacks
Lost 1 big pot bad beat where opponent had a AQ, called and caught a T on river for a straight
Lost 2 medium pots, folding after a min-raise from a opponent (see below).
Totalled up I'm about $40 down from KK. The two AA hands, and the bad beat killed me. But I also learned a couple of things from this:

1) Be wary of the stealth Ace - the Ace on the Board that you pretend is not there.

2) At least consider the possibility pre-flop that you are beaten by AA

Also, two of the hands puzzled me, and being somewhat gun-shy by this stage, I folded both of em. Were my bets on the turn weak? Should I have called the min-raise? Grateful for any feedback on what others would do in these situations:

pokerstars Game #13680678798: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/12/06 - 03:03:45 (ET)
Table 'Moultona III' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Spleen25 ($11.05 in chips)
Seat 2: PiS.go082 ($9.85 in chips)
Seat 3: sixshooter4u ($2 in chips)
Seat 4: Copperhead R ($5.10 in chips)
Seat 5: Miloutje ($6.40 in chips)
Seat 6: TheDoc ($18.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Fatmanzzz ($1.85 in chips)
Seat 8: bobbybacino ($9.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Ludwig59 ($2.55 in chips)
bobbybacino: posts small blind $0.05
Ludwig59: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheDoc [Kh Kd]
Spleen25: folds
PiS.go082: calls $0.10
sixshooter4u: calls $0.10
Copperhead R: folds
Miloutje: folds
TheDoc: raises $0.40 to $0.50
Fatmanzzz: folds
bobbybacino: folds
Ludwig59: folds
PiS.go082: calls $0.40
sixshooter4u: folds
*** FLOP *** [4c 9d 3c]
PiS.go082: checks
TheDoc: bets $1
PiS.go082: calls $1
*** TURN *** [4c 9d 3c] [8s]
PiS.go082: checks
Ludwig59 leaves the table
TheDoc: bets $2
PiS.go082: raises $2 to $4 (this guy was new to table, no information)
rokkenroll joins the table at seat #9
TheDoc: folds
PiS.go082 collected $6.90 from pot
PiS.go082: doesn't show hand

PokerStars Game #13734378314: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/12/08 - 17:42:28 (ET)
Table 'Eugenia V' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: BonScott313 ($7.25 in chips)
Seat 3: dukitup ($1.90 in chips)
Seat 4: JLGomez ($16.10 in chips)
Seat 5: Kenneys69 ($5 in chips)
Seat 6: vettemann ($5.90 in chips)
Seat 7: xProfGumbyx ($5.90 in chips)
Seat 8: TheDoc ($14.95 in chips)
Seat 9: JohnM1 ($7.10 in chips)
dukitup: posts small blind $0.05
JLGomez: posts big blind $0.10
Kenneys69: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheDoc [Kc Kd]
Kenneys69: checks
vettemann: calls $0.10
xProfGumbyx: folds
TheDoc: raises $0.30 to $0.40
JohnM1: folds
BonScott313: calls $0.40
dukitup: folds
JLGomez: calls $0.30
Kenneys69: calls $0.30
vettemann: calls $0.30
*** FLOP *** [9h Jh 4d]
JLGomez: checks
Kenneys69: checks
vettemann: bets $0.50
TheDoc: raises $1.50 to $2
BonScott313: folds
JLGomez: calls $2
Kenneys69: folds
vettemann: folds
*** TURN *** [9h Jh 4d] [3d]
JLGomez: checks
TheDoc: bets $4
JLGomez: raises $4 to $8 (This guy is a TAG - rather tight multi-tabler).
TheDoc: folds
JLGomez collected $13.85 from pot
JLGomez: doesn't show hand
 
T

TheReaper

Guest
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Sep 4, 2007
Total posts
54
The turn bets were fine, if I'm doing my math right both were about 2/3 the pot which shows your serious about your hand and effectively gets rid of pot odds for draws. On the first hand, I probably go broke. Without a read on him, there is nothing there that tells me to fold. His play suggests a set or two pair, but a new player protecting his blind could be anything. I push and let the chips fall where they may. The second hand, I might be more inclined to just call or even fold. With 5 people seeing the flop and then one of them calling a serious flop bet, a set is pretty likely. This would totally depend on my feel for the player, I don't know that I could lay KK down though. Personally, without something obviously beating me I'm willing to go down with KK's. If i'm beat, I'm beat.
 
I

IwinNeverLose

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Jan 19, 2008
Total posts
2
YO!

I like the Way you played it till the turn. I honestly on the first one would of Shoved all in. People like to come to the table and make a quick buck and leave and could be in there with anything.
 
SeanyJ

SeanyJ

Legend
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Aug 21, 2007
Total posts
1,558
The first hand I probably would've called, maybe even pushed the guy all in but there is nothing wrong with folding there since a limp from early position like that could easily be a small pocket pair.

The 2nd one, if you have a good read on the guy and he is only playing big hands I probably would have folded as well.

I'd like to see the medium pots you lost when there was an ace on the board. Did you bet it all the way to the river with an ace on there?
 
T

TheDoc

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Aug 7, 2007
Total posts
84
I'd like to see the medium pots you lost when there was an ace on the board. Did you bet it all the way to the river with an ace on there?

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I could only find one of these Ace on the flop hands, as below. I did have a couple of bets at the pot, but realised after the second call I was probably facing an Ace so I checked the River. There was probably a better way to play this.

PokerStars Game #14477099573: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/01/11 - 09:09:56 (ET)
Table 'Leloir II' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: kiste.ffm ($3.80 in chips)
Seat 2: RollTideRoll ($11.80 in chips)
Seat 3: JLGomez ($9.90 in chips)
Seat 4: AcedePique ($11.75 in chips)
Seat 5: TheDoc ($12.10 in chips)
Seat 6: bigchiefds ($11.30 in chips)
Seat 7: xTheSnowmanx ($9.90 in chips)
Seat 8: BluffaloJoe ($10 in chips)
Seat 9: Zulit ($9.70 in chips)
xTheSnowmanx: posts small blind $0.05
BluffaloJoe: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheDoc [Ks Kd]
Zulit: folds
kiste.ffm: folds
RollTideRoll: folds
JLGomez: folds
AcedePique: folds
TheDoc: raises $0.30 to $0.40
bigchiefds: calls $0.40
xTheSnowmanx: folds
BluffaloJoe: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qc 9d Ac]
TheDoc: bets $0.70
bigchiefds: calls $0.70
*** TURN *** [Qc 9d Ac] [5h]
TheDoc: bets $2
bigchiefds: calls $2
*** RIVER *** [Qc 9d Ac 5h] [5d]
TheDoc: checks
bigchiefds: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TheDoc: shows [Ks Kd] (two pair, Kings and Fives)
bigchiefds: shows [Ad Jd] (two pair, Aces and Fives)
bigchiefds collected $6.05 from pot
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
TheDoc said:
*** FLOP *** [Qc 9d Ac]
TheDoc: bets $0.70
bigchiefds: calls $0.70
*** TURN *** [Qc 9d Ac] 5♥
TheDoc: bets $2
bigchiefds: calls $2
Ummm, yeah....

What made you feel the need to bet twice on that flop/turn? I mean, obviously, its a bad move. However, I'd like to know your thought process here.
 
T

TheDoc

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Its awhile ago, but my thought process was something like, OK there's an Ace, lets bet to see what he thinks of that Ace. The call felt weak, in my mind, it could have been an Ace or a draw. So I made another bet on the turn, I think because I wasnt sure and I didnt want to give away control just yet.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Its awhile ago, but my thought process was something like, OK there's an Ace, lets bet to see what he thinks of that Ace. The call felt weak, in my mind, it could have been an Ace or a draw. So I made another bet on the turn, I think because I wasnt sure and I didnt want to give away control just yet.
With that ace on the board, you need to straight up shut down, especially out of position.

In 10$ NL, newbies love to call raises with weak aces. And while this is a leak in their game, a weak ace has you drawing very thin right now.

If I was holding kings, if I'm out of position, I would just check. If he checks behind, then you can think about putting him on a draw. The free card isn't that big of an issue, since at worst it will only complete his draw 25% of the time at most. And its worth it to avoid donating to an ace. We're not in a position where we can bet aggressively to get value out of draws.

So if there's an ace on the board, I would play the hand out like so:

*** FLOP *** [Qc 9d Ac]
Hero checks
if Villain bets, Hero folds
if Villain checks, see turn
*** TURN *** [Qc 9d Ac] 5♥
Hero checks
if Villain bets, Hero calls unless villain has been very passive
if Villain checks, see river
*** RIVER *** [Qc 9d Ac 5h] 5♦
Hero checks
if Villain bets & bet the turn, fold
if Villain bets but checked the turn, call
if Villain checks, see showdown

Your kings can only really withstand one bet. If he has the balls to 2-barrel you with a weaker hand, then we'll just have to accept that loss. Also, playing it down passively like this is just fine because it saves us money against an A, and it opens us up to be bluffed (which is really the only thing we can beat).

Betting on the flop will simply scare away hands that we beat, or be just a donation to hands that have us beat. If you want to get value out of draws, do it by calling their river bluffs when their draws break.
 
T

TheDoc

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Aug 7, 2007
Total posts
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Yeh, I think out of position plays like this has been a leak of mine. Nice reply, very well put.
 
Tygran

Tygran

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Total posts
1,757
I don't mind an oop c-bet with KK and an ace on the flop but I'm not double barreling it unless I know my opponent will call me down with 2nd/3rd pair and draws.

As far as the OP... First hand you can't fold the kings there. You have to at least call if not reraise/shove. New guy at this limit being aggressive out of a blind is often on a bluff/draw or just single pair (wouldn't shock me to see him flip 9/anything here). Of course he could be alot stronger but you are pretty strong yourself, I don't like folding to a $2 reraise.

I don't mind the fold as much on the 2nd hand with your read of the guy.
 
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