$100NL hand QQ vs 4-bet shove.

tenbob

tenbob

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Standard ??? Villian is 15/14 over 100 hands, notes felted JJ from the BB.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)
SB ($46.45)
BB ($100.40)
UTG ($102.75)
UTG+1 ($95.50)
MP1 ($73.80)
MP2 ($99.50)
CO ($101.30)
Hero ($140.85)
Preflop: Hero is Button with
qc.gif
,
qd.gif
.
5 folds, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, BB raises to $14, Hero raises to $30, BB raises to $100.4, Hero calls $70.40.
Flop: ($201.30)

Edit : This is something id usually never do, ive opened up my ranges somewhat for 3betting/4 betting since watching db's vids. Id been playing 20/15/5.
 
blankoblanco

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It's button vs. big blind so I think this is probably okay
 
joosebuck

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yea i think this can be defense with a lot of medium pp's we're ahead of, as well as AK which i think makes this +EV
 
joosebuck

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reraise to 12~ fold to a 4bet. but how does he see you right now?
 
skoldpadda

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I can't see folding here.
 
joosebuck

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i dont think you can 4bet to 30 and not be ready to play for stacks.
 
tenbob

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reraise to 12~ fold to a 4bet. but how does he see you right now?

He thinks im a maniac. Just wish it wasnt 1AM, pah the fish are always out when i gotta to to bed.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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I put villian on AA/KK.
Why? you might ask, I go by the rule of 4th raise means aces, hero raises(#1), villian re-raises(#2), hero re-raises(#3), villian re-raises(#4).
Because of this I'm not too sure of hero's call here, hope to spike a set on the flop.
 
Jagsti

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For me I think his range here is JJ+ AK which I think makes this a slight -EV play. But if he thinks your a maniac this may widen somewhat, but it's debatable wether he puts it all in with less.
 
DaveE

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If he thinks you're a maniac you have to call, especially if you've been raising his BB. His hand could be as low as AJ or 88. ARRRRRINNN.
 
ChuckTs

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As mentioned, BSB I think this is fine. Especially if he thinks you're a maniac.
 
the clêaner

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I think this is fine, given your image and position. Also, he might think that your 4bet to only 30$ was weakness. I call
 
dbitel

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This isnt the best way of playing the hand.

Just call the reraise preflop and play poker on the flop.

And btw, he 5bet shoved, not 4bet shoved :)
 
ChuckTs

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This isnt the best way of playing the hand.

Just call the reraise preflop and play poker on the flop.

Really? I know BB is tight, but a reraise vs our button raise with a maniacal image and you're just calling?
 
dbitel

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Let me expand.

1) 20/15, while on the loose side of TAG for full ring, is hardly manical stats, and you don't know that villain has even noticed your 3bets.

2) If we 4bet, I think we let off JJ/TT way too lightly.

3) If you give him a range of 3betting of like 99+, AQ+, then without running the numbers, I would still think that 4betting preflop is +EV, I just think that calling is MORE +EV. I can see him felting QQ+/AK preflop, and so all we're getting from the rest of his range is the $12, while if we flat call preflop, we get teh cbet that is obv coming as well.

4) If the flop comes like T high or 9 high or something, I'm usually shoving over his cbet. This means 2 things...1) we're more likely to get value from JJ type hands and 2) if teh flop comes with an ace or a king, we can get out cheap, and we've lost the min vs AK type hands, while if we get AI pf, all we're doing is going 50/50.

5) Flat calling lets us flop a set and extract vs AA/KK the times we ARE beat preflop
 
E

evny

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once you 4bet, you CANNOT fold

QQ vs KK,AA,AK = 40% equity

and that is a VERY tight range for a blind battle vs someone who thinks you are a maniac
 
dbitel

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For me I think his range here is JJ+ AK which I think makes this a slight -EV play. But if he thinks your a maniac this may widen somewhat, but it's debatable wether he puts it all in with less.

This isn't quite true. Its actually a +EV call, given the dead money already in the pot
 
ChuckTs

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Let me expand.

1) 20/15, while on the loose side of TAG for full ring, is hardly manical stats, and you don't know that villain has even noticed your 3bets.

2) If we 4bet, I think we let off JJ/TT way too lightly.

3) If you give him a range of 3betting of like 99+, AQ+, then without running the numbers, I would still think that 4betting preflop is +EV, I just think that calling is MORE +EV. I can see him felting QQ+/AK preflop, and so all we're getting from the rest of his range is the $12, while if we flat call preflop, we get teh cbet that is obv coming as well.

4) If the flop comes like T high or 9 high or something, I'm usually shoving over his cbet. This means 2 things...1) we're more likely to get value from JJ type hands and 2) if teh flop comes with an ace or a king, we can get out cheap, and we've lost the min vs AK type hands, while if we get AI pf, all we're doing is going 50/50.

5) Flat calling lets us flop a set and extract vs AA/KK the times we ARE beat preflop

Fair enough :)

re:1), I realize 22/15/x isn't a maniac, but tb mentioned that villain is probably percieving us that way. We may be TAG this session, but could have raised a lot of pots recently.

Regardless, I do now see why it's better to smooth call. thx for that.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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5) Flat calling lets us flop a set and extract vs AA/KK the times we ARE beat preflop

lol well i think getting it all in with AA/KK preflop and then flopping our set gets just as much value, eh? :)
 
skoldpadda

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So if he has JJ and the flop has an ace or king, are you folding?

I think all in PF is the play here given villain's image.
 
ChuckTs

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So if he has JJ and the flop has an ace or king, are you folding?

a) how are we to know he has JJ?

and

b) it's not likely villain will bet that flop, which will be very scary for him (we might even get it checked to SD)

I think all in PF is the play here given villain's image.

The only thing villain's image gives us is more reason to slow down since his range is tighter...

Not to brown nose the more experienced player, but I think I'm with dbitel on this one. I don't think pushing is bad, but smooth calling just seems better. We invite worse hands in, get the chance to outdraw bigger hands as well as push AK off of an unimproved flop for him as opposed to flipping AIPF, and can invite him to c-bet with what could possibly be a bluff/3-bet light.
 
J

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So if he has JJ and the flop has an ace or king, are you folding?


I'm certainly not going to "raise for information" :p .

JJ would probably c-bet that flop but then would slow down either on the turn or river, although it depends on opponent.

If he flat calls our 4bet rather than 5bet shoving, we still have the same problem if the flop brings an A or K. So really our 4bet isn't the solution to all the trouble, it actually might make us lose value vs JJ/TT/99/88/AK cause they might fold to it, and against those hands on a dry flop you can shove the c-bet and have a good chance to get his whole stack.

Without knowing what the flop brings its impossible to know which strategy is best. You could get one that kills all action but its more likely you won't. You have position and if you flat call his 3bet you're pretty much disguising your queens. Out of all the possible flops you're more likely to get one that allows you to get alot of chips in the pot when ahead rather than not, all due to the power of deception.
 
tenbob

tenbob

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5-bet sorry, shouldnt really be posting while im playing anyway :)

I just felt after seeing him play JJ the exact same way earlier on that I was ahead of his range. I can see the value in seeing a flop in position, and getting away from it if an overcard hits. . He had AJ (WTF) and my QQ held.
 
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