No Brainer
Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
If we are to raise the flop to any reasonable amount ($1+) we have to be shoving or calling a shove basically every flop to make a raise any good. If we make it $1.2 we have $2 behind and there is ~$2.50 in the pot. Do you think it will be profitable to call a shove on an AKJ board?
ben_rhyno
Legend
Silver Level
No but on this flop we could easily make the shove, but the pot isn't all that big. I suppose flatting/3-betting small like he has gives him a chance to get away from flops like AKJ, but 3-betting bigger gives a chance to take the pot down preflop, or make it easier/better to get it in on 'safer' flops. Also on this flop if we bet big and villain reraises we call anyways
rssurfer54
Visionary
Silver Level
i think folding is better. theres not that much in the pot yet, so we dont win much for a big bet, and if we get called we are going to be flipping or crushed.
only reason i could see really for shoving is that because we are short villain could see us as bad, meaning if he adjusts by calling with ax less than 7 and other stuff we beat its good. but i think thats a long shot.
No Brainer
Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
You're right, we shouldn't be afraid of flipping but if he has a range of TT+ AQs+ AK we are either flipping or we are crushed against all of his hands meaning we are pretty far behind his entire range.
If you ever think about 3 betting bigger here and folding on any flop you may need to read up a little on SPR (stack to pot ratio).
SPR is basically is a way to measure when we become pot committed. To figure out the SPR in a hand we take the smallest remaining stack and divide that by the size of the pot. For this hand on the flop the pot is $1.15 and we have $2.70 remaining in our stack. This means our SPR is 2.3 (2.7 / 1.15 = 2.3). If we both had 100bb stacks however our SPR would be 8.3 (9.50 / 1.15 = 8.3).
The higher our SPR is on the flop the more maneuverability we have with our post flop actions. With a smaller SPR we have a lot less options available to us.
A simple guide that I have found is that when we have an SPR between 0 and 2 we should be comfortable to get our stacks in on most flops.
Between 3 and 7 (quite often in 3 bet pots) we don't have a great amount of room to move and we need to decide before making our move on the flop whether or no we are comfortable getting stacks in on this board against this opponent.
With an SPR of 7 or more we have a good amount of flexibility with our post flop actions. We can create pot sizes according to the strength of our hand. We can start building the pot with big hands that we want to stack off with or try to control the pot size with our small to medium strength hands.
The biggest effect on our SPR is usually our preflop actions. Just adjusting our preflop raise size by 1 or 2 bbs can drastically change the size of the pot by the river.
In this hand if you are to 3 bet bigger, lets say to $0.90 and get called. This gives us an SPR of 1.2 (2.30 / 1.95 = 1.2). We really don't want to be getting ourselves into spots where we have an SPR this low and folding a lot of the time post flop. When we do get to a flop with an SPR this low we should be doing it with hands that will play well on basically any flop.
If you are 3 betting to take it down preflop you are essentially turning your hand into a bluff (to get better hands to fold). If we want to bluff shouldn't we be gaining as much fold equity as possible by shoving?
Also are you going to call when he 4 bet shoves? Are we ever ahead? or will we have the pot odds to call against his shoving range?
ben_rhyno
Legend
Silver Level
Thanks for the indepth analysis, i kind of see your point and do understand SPR, maybe we can agree to disagree, I am fairly aggressive and with 30bbs I am looking to get it in here either preflop or take it down preflop. With a strong 3-bet I think we can often get 99 to fold and AJ, obviously we are crushed by TT+ but a lot of players will call along with AQ and definitely AK, and loose players with AT,AJ,KQ etc. Would my answer make more sense if we had 20bbs instead of 30, maybe I'm not adjusting for something.
No Brainer
Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
So if you really think that 3 betting (not shoving) is good here and he has a calling range of AJ+ KQ+ 99 - JJ. Almost every flop is terrible for us and we will be committed. I don't see why you would think this is profitable?
No Brainer
Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Ok, so you say that you think 99 and AJ will fold to a shove. What hands do you think will call the shove? TT+ AQ+? We have about 37% equity against that range. I am not 100% sure how to find out if this is profitable based on the % of folds we get and our equity in the pot but I think it will be a little on the wrong side of even.
ben_rhyno
Legend
Silver Level
You're probably right, but I am still inclined to get it in here. JJ+ will ner fold, as will AK. For me it is very Dependent on villain stats, looser players will come along with 77-TT ( I've seen worse) AJ-AQ-KQ and I think we have a little more equity against this range making it profitable to shove. Against a TAG, fold preflop. That's my final answer
Cafeman
Legend
Silver Level
Do you mean pot committed? Why would we be committed? TBH I don't even really understand the concept of being pot committed. Surely if it's better to fold, it's better to fold regardless of any ratio to do with our stack size to the pot?