$10 NLHE 6-max: River value too thin?

[loafaBREAD]

V is unknown. I bet riv, got raised and did call down. The only hand I could think he'd have is AJ for a chop. In those situations, where the line doesn't make sense, should I just fold?

I figure this play (riv riase) is never a bluff, but hard to find what hands prefer this vs a donk river bet.

Anyway, here is the hand:

Yatahay Network - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 138 BB
SB: 120.5 BB
BB: 140.8 BB
UTG: 265.8 BB
Hero (MP): 196.8 BB
CO: 123.9 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:club: A:club:

fold, Hero raises to 2.8 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2.3 BB, fold

Flop: (6.6 BB, 2 players) 7:diamond: J:diamond: 3:diamond:
SB checks, Hero bets 3.9 BB, SB calls 3.9 BB

Turn: (14.4 BB, 2 players) Q:heart:
SB checks, Hero bets 6.7 BB, SB calls 6.7 BB

River: (27.8 BB, 2 players) 7:club:
SB checks, Hero bets 10.9 BB, SB raises to 35.7 BB, Hero calls 24.8 BB

 

[quant1986]

SB taking river check raise could keep your bluff in and get more values from flushes when he had something better. 7 is not a card that improves SB range once he x/c twice so I doubt if he should have a river donk range on this texture, as you can have all the strong combos.

Yes river is a bit thin in my view, not sure he would call with all JT,KJ, when there is a Q on the board.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Yea I think river is a bit thin. I wouldn't expect to get calls on a triple barrel from weaker Jx here. I'd just x back. I like this sizing for our value hands though to try to induce a raise. Some players do spaz vs smaller sizings so it's possible V has something like AdX here but in general I think this spot will be under bluffed so that when we get raised we are usually beat.

 

[gustav197poker]

I have seen many players who bet more than half a pot on this type of single color flop. Personally I prefer to check them IP. They could pay us with Jxs, but we also cut down on dominated hands that won't take chances on this texture. We are also flipping with many combos that have a diamond nut.
The turn is proof of this. Now the texture impacts more on the V range, because the villain could have more semibluffs like Kxs who decided to check it with Kd and can now shoot representing many QKo that played slow preflop. Betting is good here, but we'll be better off the times we don't betting too much OTF, because we'll allow villain to keep all of his semi-bluff combos.
The river is a place where we want to defend more often. We blocked the second full house scale, we could induce the bet of a failed draw. But the villain has checked again and this is not very good because now we are dominated in bluffs. If we decide to bet here the raise leaves us with significant fold equity, because minimally we expect a lot of QX here.
Greetings.

 

[fundiver199]

Yes its to thin. Turn bet is ok, because he can still call with one diamond, but he is not calling on the river with a busted draw. He is probably not even calling with a hand like TdTc, which is now only 3. pair.

 

[loafaBREAD]

I have seen many players who bet more than half a pot on this type of single color flop. Personally I prefer to check them IP. They could pay us with Jxs, but we also cut down on dominated hands that won't take chances on this texture. We are also flipping with many combos that have a diamond nut.
The turn is proof of this. Now the texture impacts more on the V range, because the villain could have more semibluffs like Kxs who decided to check it with Kd and can now shoot representing many QKo that played slow preflop. Betting is good here, but we'll be better off the times we don't betting too much OTF, because we'll allow villain to keep all of his semi-bluff combos.
The river is a place where we want to defend more often. We blocked the second full house scale, we could induce the bet of a failed draw. But the villain has checked again and this is not very good because now we are dominated in bluffs. If we decide to bet here the raise leaves us with significant fold equity, because minimally we expect a lot of QX here.
Greetings.

Thanks all for your replies.

I've read tons of stuff that says to check back more on mono boards... why? Vs at this stake look for any excuse to call, any they will with any decent diamond (88 with a diamond will call flop). I haven't faced many xraises on these boards.

But (I'm trying to understand) what you're saying is that if we check back flop, V will have more air on the turn that he can bluff? Or are you saying that V can put more pressure on us with this card since his range is more condensed around big diamond cards?

Also, what are we value betting riv. that isn't a house/top flush?

 

[gustav197poker]

Thanks all for your replies.

I've read tons of stuff that says to check back more on mono boards... why? Vs at this stake look for any excuse to call, any they will with any decent diamond (88 with a diamond will call flop). I haven't faced many xraises on these boards.

But (I'm trying to understand) what you're saying is that if we check back flop, V will have more air on the turn that he can bluff? Or are you saying that V can put more pressure on us with this card since his range is more condensed around big diamond cards?

Also, what are we value betting riv. that isn't a house/top flush?

I wanted to say the 2 situations together that you outline, you understood very well. I also agree that a medium pocket like 8-8 with 8d should x / r at a higher frequency, as it will try to block the hero OTF bluffs. Finally on the river as played I think the closest line is b / f.

 

[gustav197poker]

I wanted to say the 2 situations together that you outline, you understood very well. I also agree that a medium pocket like 8-8 with 8d should x / r at a higher frequency, as it will try to block the hero OTF bluffs. Finally on the river as played I think the closest line is b / f.

But honestly I don't think you see a lot of x / r lines with 8d-8 in NL10. Most likely they have high nuts and against that you will be flipping and you do not want the pot to get too large, because the villain has a lot of implicit chances of improving.

 

[Delfino]

Well you have to call because the pod odds are just too good. What I would do differently is I would just check the river. It is not adviced to bet medium hands on river because only better hands will call. By checking the river you may also induce a bluff from a hand that would fold to your bet. You are also keeping the pot smaller with just a medium hand.

In other words I would check and then probably called a bet if the pot odds were good.

 

[Bnobob]

I Just Call! Or fold Thre Sevens

 

[Viparida]

You had value on your hand there was no reason to bet the turn like you did after a card higher than jack appeared.