$10 NLHE 6-max: Facing a Turn Raise OOP

[NoOneYouKnow]

You really need to be squeezing PF in this spot every time. Not only will it turn a profit on its own by picking up dead money, but it will give you the initiative making the hand much easier to play. On this board it would be cbet flop, shove turn, easy money.

As played: I have assumed the SB is a fish given no other info because there is no autorebuy. Maybe this not a feature of Cake? So maybe bad assumption? I have also assumed the CO is a nit SS reg given the minimum buy in.

I am not sure why you led the flop. You are almost never taking the pot down with a single bet and you seem to be relative IP against the SB fish and relative OOP against the SS reg. Based on the preflop action it really seems like the CO has a low PP and is going to flop shove any set, so there is really no need to factor him in to your flop decision making.

By checking the flop we can make a better decision based on the SB action. SB raise is an easy fold as we only have our nut flush outs to draw to. SB call is an easy call with the inflated pot odds being offered. SB fold could be either a call or a raise. Regarding the BTN, remember that a high agg factor also means that they fold a lot rather than call. Personally I would rather make a small raise on the flop and be done with the hand, mainly because I don't want to draw OOP.

The turn decision is a simple equity calculation which I think everyone else has commented on. There is no point shoving the turn because you have zero fold equity. If the equity is right, call turn, and shove river if you make your nut draws (Jd is a fun card for you).

 

[JimmyBrizzy]

What range of hands do you give him on the turn? I feel like he has a draw a lot himself (like QJdd).

Do we really think he continues with that type of hand on the flop (honest question)? OP - any idea if this guy flats flop bets or doesn't fold to c-bets often?

this is a stone cold flat we have 12 outs, he is rarely bluffing he is giving us 4.5/1 we are definately behind on the turn so no point in jamming.

call given direct odds

I'd have to agree. Although not as strong as as a turn c/r, this is usually not complete air.

 

[bounce 2018]

@lik - I am not sure if he folds to cbets often. I actually did not look at the stat.

My thinking on betting the flop was I was taking an aggressive approach to playing my nut flush draw and trying to win the pot right there. I figured if I am getting villain to fold it was going to be on the flop. Once the turn was a brick for me, I figured if I don't bet it could be portrayed as weakness and screaming I am on a draw myself. With that in mind I also thought if my flush does hit on the river and I didn't lead on the turn than I wouldn't get as much value for my made hand.

Is this thinking wrong or am I not making sense with what I am trying to say?

 

[baudib1]

I'm convinced calling turn is the best play now.

 

[bounce 2018]

I'm convinced calling turn is the best play now.

Why are you convinced now? Is it because of the odds we are getting to call the draw? Why not jam the turn and make the river decision easy since we are out OOP if we only call and the river is a blank for us? What do you do if you only call and the river is a blank card for us then?

I really have learned quite a bit from this discussion. Thanks everyone.

 

[Jurn8]

Why are you convinced now? Is it because of the odds we are getting to call the draw? Why not jam the turn and make the river decision easy since we are out OOP if we only call and the river is a blank for us? What do you do if you only call and the river is a blank card for us then?

I really have learned quite a bit from this discussion. Thanks everyone.

c/f

 

[c9h13no3]

At least Jurn saved this thread so I don't have to. Some epic bad logic rolling around here.

Jamming the turn or river is the worst line ever. You just got Baluga'd by a fish, wtf do you think he can fold?

And Baudib, stop turning every strong draw on the turn into a god damn semibluff. Needing 10% folds to make an action profitable does not make that the MOST profitable line. Check, take the free money.

Check the flop too.

Lastly, squeezing here is NOT automatic. You have a hand that plays great multiway, and you can likely bring along the CO (who is prolly a fish) by flatting. You're probably not going to be in position or heads up, and usually 50/25's dont enjoy folding early in the hand. Squeezing is great, and you should be looking for spots to do it. But I dont think this is one of them.

 

[baudib1]

At least Jurn saved this thread so I don't have to. Some epic bad logic rolling around here.

Jamming the turn or river is the worst line ever. You just got Baluga'd by a fish, wtf do you think he can fold?

And Baudib, stop turning every strong draw on the turn into a god damn semibluff. Needing 10% folds to make an action profitable does not make that the MOST profitable line. Check, take the free money.

Check the flop too.

Lastly, squeezing here is NOT automatic. You have a hand that plays great multiway, and you can likely bring along the CO (who is prolly a fish) by flatting. You're probably not going to be in position or heads up, and usually 50/25's dont enjoy folding early in the hand. Squeezing is great, and you should be looking for spots to do it. But I dont think this is one of them.

None of the legitimate reasons for 'taking a free card' really apply here, especially since we're not given the option to do so.

 

[c9h13no3]

None of the legitimate reasons for 'taking a free card' really apply here, especially since we're not given the option to do so.

Fine, call and take the free money. You know what I mean.

 

[swingro]

First . Why blow off the pot on theflop and the turn when it was simplier to just check for pot control. We have a lot of ppl to act behind us and i do not see the reason to semibluff on the flop. A villain is LAG and does not seems like one to let go of the pot that easy when holding an A and we still bet the turn to blow off the pott so that we have to take a hard decision after.
Second.
Odds says call. But that is not the problem. If we complete our draw is not that obvious? I do not think we will get too much value unless we know that the villain will shoot another one on the river.
Still. Calling 1.87 on a 8.41 pot is almost 4.5:1 and we have 12 outs 4.3:1. Still profitable even without extravalue on the river.

PS. We shoud had 3-bet pre to isolate the LAG fish.

 

[Jurn8]

First . Why blow off the pot on theflop and the turn when it was simplier to just check for pot control. We have a lot of ppl to act behind us and i do not see the reason to semibluff on the flop. A villain is LAG and does not seems like one to let go of the pot that easy when holding an A and we still bet the turn to blow off the pott so that we have to take a hard decision after.
Second.
Odds says call. But that is not the problem. If we complete our draw is not that obvious? I do not think we will get too much value unless we know that the villain will shoot another one on the river.
Still. Calling 1.87 on a 8.41 pot is almost 4.5:1 and we have 12 outs 4.3:1. Still profitable even without extravalue on the river.

PS. We shoud had 3-bet pre to isolate the LAG fish.

playing big draws like this you will make 0 money

 

[swingro]

playing big draws like this you will make 0 money

Pls elaborate on this hand. My reason to play it like this was the multiway pot on the flop where i do not want to isolate the LAG guy when i hit the nut flush draw.If i would be in this hand i would 3-bet pre to isolate him. Given this hand i wanna keep ppl in the hand to contribute at the pot.
I want to know how others would play this on the flop and why.

 

[Jurn8]

First . Why blow off the pot on theflop and the turn when it was simplier to just check for pot control. We have a lot of ppl to act behind us and i do not see the reason to semibluff on the flop. A villain is LAG and does not seems like one to let go of the pot that easy when holding an A (top of his range) and we still bet the turn to blow off the pott so that we have to take a hard decision after.
Second.
Odds says call. But that is not the problem. If we complete our draw is not that obvious? I do not think we will get too much value unless we know that the villain will shoot another one on the river.
Still. Calling 1.87 on a 8.41 pot is almost 4.5:1 and we have 12 outs 4.3:1. Still profitable even without extravalue on the river.

PS. We shoud had 3-bet pre to isolate the LAG fish.

Pls elaborate on this hand. My reason to play it like this was the multiway pot on the flop where i do not want to isolate the LAG guy when i hit the nut flush draw.If i would be in this hand i would 3-bet pre to isolate him. Given this hand i wanna keep ppl in the hand to contribute at the pot.
I want to know how others would play this on the flop and why.

so you want to c/c your draw? Playing draws passively is terrible.

by c/c your draw you only are going to win the pot in one way, when you hit plus then you hand is pretty face up to any kind of player that knows what they are doing, passive until you hit draw aggro when draw hits.
By betting you can win the pot when they fold flop, barrell turns or triple them off a weak range when we miss or value when we hit. You can also use this image to bet for thinner value (Ax) for multiple streets and wider for bluffs, therefore your range is wider which makes you harder to play against.

also stop blowing off pots

 

[bounce 2018]

so you want to c/c your draw? Playing draws passively is terrible.

by c/c your draw you only are going to win the pot in one way, when you hit plus then you hand is pretty face up to any kind of player that knows what they are doing, passive until you hit draw aggro when draw hits.
By betting you can win the pot when they fold flop, barrell turns or triple them off a weak range when we miss or value when we hit. You can also use this image to bet for thinner value (Ax) for multiple streets and wider for bluffs, therefore your range is wider which makes you harder to play against.

also stop blowing off pots

I agree Jurn with what you are saying here. If I c/c all the way to hitting my draw I might as well flip my cards faceup on the flop. My thinking is if I bet the flop, turn and the river if draw hits villain won't know if im playing with top pair, two pair, set or a made draw. I think by betting all 3 streets its harder for villain to put me on a hand.

I used to play draws passively and I noticed when I play them more aggresive I get more value when I do hit them.

Is my thinking wrong here?

 

[Jurn8]

not necessarily betting all 3 all the time as that would be spewy

but yeah thats the logic your range is wider as you say pairs, 2p, sets draws rather than c/c c/jam oh i think he binked his draw

 

[bounce 2018]

not necessarily betting all 3 all the time as that would be spewy

but yeah thats the logic your range is wider as you say pairs, 2p, sets draws rather than c/c c/jam oh i think he binked his draw

No I don't 3bet draws all the time. I will typically take the "nut" draw further than the non "nut" draws.