$10 NLHE 6-max: 3bet pot, what's my range for a turn shove?

bgomez89

bgomez89

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Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software

NL Holdem 0.1(BB)
CO ($15.37) [VPIP: 31.1% | PFR: 25.9% | AGG: 32.2% | hands: 141]
BTN ($19.30) [VPIP: 17.8% | PFR: 13.6% | AGG: 26.4% | Flop Agg: 30.3% | Turn Agg: 24.3% | River Agg: 20.8% | 3-Bet: 6.1% | 4-Bet: 21.4% | Hands: 726]
SB ($11.57) [VPIP: 80% | PFR: 8% | AGG: 26.9% | Flop Agg: 17.9% | Turn Agg: 37.2% | River Agg: 29% | 3-Bet: 10.7% | 4-Bet: 0% | Cold Call: 76% | Hands: 79]
HERO ($10) [VPIP: 25.8% | PFR: 21% | AGG: 33.8% | Flop Agg: 43.5% | Turn Agg: 28.3% | River Agg: 19% | 3-Bet: 5.6% | Fold to 3-Bet: 61.1% | 4-Bet: 9.3% | Hands: 38548]
UTG ($11.41) [VPIP: 28.4% | PFR: 21.6% | AGG: 29.4% | Hands: 89]
HJ ($9.79) [VPIP: 17.3% | PFR: 4.1% | AGG: 21.1% | Hands: 99]

Dealt to Hero: []

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Raises To $0.30, SB Calls $0.25, HERO Raises To $1, BTN Calls $0.70, SB Calls $0.70

Hero SPR on Flop: [3 effective]
Flop ($3): J:heart: J:club: T:diamond:
SB Checks, HERO Bets $1.89 (Rem. Stack: $7.11), BTN Calls $1.89 (Rem. Stack: $16.41), SB Folds

Turn ($6.78): J:heart: J:club: T:diamond: 5:diamond:
HERO Shoves

I'm trying to figure out what my range should be in this spot for a turn shove or if I should even be shoving on the turn at all with whatever I represent.

My betting range on the flop probably looks something like [QQ+, TT, AQs-AJs, KJs+, K9s, QJs, Q9s-Q8s, J9s+, 97s+, 87s, AQo-AJo, KJo+]

When the BTN calls my turn bet, I'm putting him on [JJ-88,AQs,ATs,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,AQo]

Turn doesn't do much for either of our ranges other than picking up FDs. This is where I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking my bluff/value range would be [TT,AJs, KJs+,JTs,98s,AdQd,Kd9d,AJo,KQo]. Is this range good enough to shove? Should I shove with this range or bet/fold? Just give up?
 
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tt124f

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I think if I am playing with you, I do not put you in a flop range that you assumed, because you are getting good odds to call w/ suited connectors like 78s, J9s.
I think betting w/ weak straight draw like K9s using that large size is also not profitable. Another problem is this size leads to a awkward turn situation when shoving looks too strong but any bet is pot-committed.
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

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so as the BTN are you saying you wouldn't have any suited connect in my 3bet range?

I agree about the flop bet, looking back I probably should've just half potted here
 
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tt124f

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so as the BTN are you saying you wouldn't have any suited connect in my 3bet range?

I agree about the flop bet, looking back I probably should've just half potted here


I mean suited connector play pretty good post flop, giving the good odds you get in a multiway pot I presume a fair amount of players will just call instead of 3-bet. Moreover, usually they will 3-bet bluff some weaker hands instead of J9s, probably 68s, or k9, k8.
 
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300HPGOD

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In my opinion this comes down to what you know about villain. You have 726 hands with them and based on stats they are nitty but the real question (you may know playing this many hands with them) is what is their perception of you and will they call off a jam when they only have a draw here? Next would be are they a player who easily folds AA, KK, QQ when they should? (for the record I dont think they have those hands based on pre flop but you can never be certain).

If you determine that this player is only calling a jam when they have a jack, 1010 or 55 then your jam range can be quite wide. Yes we would want to have equity with our jam in case we are wrong but in reality you could jam 72 off there if you think they are folding. It gets trickier if you believe they have it in them to look you up. That also brings us to the question of should we be jamming Jx here? That obviously is tied to villain tendencies and what they think of us but we know we would not get value from a missed draw on the river so we would have to get what we could now. Based on stack sizes (too big a bet on the flop got us to this) I think you should jam Jx here unless you are certain they are a post flop folder.

So overall to attempt to answer the question I think it depends so much on villain which I dont know about even with the stats. If they fold too much post then you can go wider than you think here with a jam, if they will never let go of draws or big pairs then you cant bluff obviously but you love Jx there. It just depends, I hate saying that but this really is a case where it is truthful that it depends on so much, most of which I dont know and you may not know. There is no way to construct a one size fits all jam range here.
 
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fundiver199

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Range construction should always begin preflop, and in this spot I think, you are 3-betting way to many hands, and you are also using to small a sizing. You are basically just bloating the pot in a situation, where you are going to be monkey in the middle postflop. Instead you should 3-bet a very strong range for value, and you should use a sizing, which will get the nit to fold, unless he has a real premium hand as well. And then ideally you get called by the whale and take him to valuetown after the flop.

Instead you ended up playing a big pot out of position against the nit, which is really not, what you want. But that being said your shoving range for the turn does look reasonable, if you got there this way with these hands. If you have some kind of draw, you at least have equity, unless he has exactly a boat. You cant really check-call, and there is probably at least some fold equity, so jamming seem fine. And of course we are also jamming trips or better for value.
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

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Range construction should always begin preflop, and in this spot I think, you are 3-betting way to many hands, and you are also using to small a sizing.
I agree with the 3bet being too small, I think maybe 4x would've been more standard.
Instead you should 3-bet a very strong range for value
Are you saying you wouldn't have bluffs in your range?
 
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c0rnBr34d

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I agree with the 3bet being too small, I think maybe 4x would've been more standard.

Are you saying you wouldn't have bluffs in your range?
In this case 4x is only a pot sized bet so with the 80 VP caller in the middle I could even see going 5x here pre. I'm not sure we have enough stats to know if you should have balanced bluffs here since I'd kind of expect the 80 VPIP player to be continuing fairly wide. A second issue with 3 betting this small in this spot is that BTN also knows that SB is likely to come along and not back raise so he can continue often with position and an already fairly snug range.

Flop I would probably range bet 1/3 here since there are only straight draws and pocket pairs to charge and they shouldn't be able to draw profitably on a paired board in a 3 bet pot for such a large sizing. 1/2 pot is probably also ok but we will need to keep in mind pot size and SPR depending on how many players are left.

As played against the tighter of the two players I'm only jamming value hands and high equity bluffs like KQ and strong diamond draws since I wouldn't expect V to float wide for 2/3 sizing on the flop here. Normally you could balance some of your check backs by trying to induce with a check or 1/4-1/3 turn bet with hands that give up and boats+ or AdJx but given our line JT, TT, JJ, are never betting that flop this large so we only have 55 that can check or downbet to induce. If somehow we have a read that BTN can call flop and fold to the jam too often then sure we can widen our range, I wouldn't make that assumption based on this hand history thus far though.
 
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fundiver199

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Are you saying you wouldn't have bluffs in your range?

Not many to be honest, since I expect the 80% VPIP whale to do a lot of calling, and what is the point in bloating the pot with hands like KJo or 97s, that are not even doing great against a wide range. It does depend a little bit on, which reads I have on BTN though. If he has a high fold to 3-bet, then I like 3-betting a whole lot more.

But since you are in big blind, a lot of hands are profitable as calls, and you are closing action, so I dont see the need to do all that much 3-betting in this particular configuration. Its different, if HJ open, whale call in CO, and you are BTN. Then I want to isolate the whale if possible and not invite someone else to come into the pot as well.
 
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