$10 NL HE Full Ring: Help with bet sizing

[Tony_McTony]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.05/$.10

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

All stacks are 100BB. It's my first hand at this table so I post a big bling from the CO. Villain also just sat down and posted a big blind UTG.

Villain checks, I check Jc3d, SB calls, BB checks

Flop comes 3hJd5h

Villain makes a pot sized bet (.38) and I raise is it to $1. SB and BB fold. Villain calls.

Turn comes 9d. Villain checks, I bet $1.15 and Villain calls.

River comes 10d. Villain shoves and I fold.

Is there any way I'm finding a call on the river? Should I have just called the flop?

 

[fundiver199]

Posting
The general advice is to not post but wait for the blinds to come around to you. However at a full ring table posting from CO is not terrible, because you get to see 6 hands for the price of 1BB, and while you miss the best seat (BTN), you also avoid the two worst seats (SB and BB). So I am actually ok with this as a way to not waste to much time waiting for blinds to come around. But for obvious reasons we should not post UTG, as this opponent did, and I would also never post in a 6-max game.

Preflop
No reason to raise junk, and if someone else raise, just fold. But they gave you a free look at the flop, which is great.

Flop
Obviously a great flop, since you flopped top and bottom, and while its not the nuts, you are very likely to have the best hand. I agree with your decision to fastplay this hand. The full pot sized bet into three opponents indicate, the Villain has at least something, and if he is bad enough to post UTG, he is not going to bet for value and then fold to a raise. You will probably not get much action from the players behind you, but even if you just call, this also looks strong due to his sizing, and they might still fold.

You also have a quite vulnerable hand, which dont mind some protection especially multiway. There is a flushdraw and some straightdraws out there, and there is also a large potential for getting counterfeited, because one of your pairs is so low. A 5 will pretty much kill your hand, and so will a board pairing runout like 4-4, 6-6, 7-7 etc. As for sizing I think, its fine to make it a dollar, but I also think, you can go a bit larger like maybe 1,2$.

Turn
Pretty safe card even though you now lose to T9. But thats a very small portion of his range. I would also bet again, and once again I think, you can go a bit larger and still get pretty much the same amount of calls. If he had top pair or a good draw, he is not folding, because you make it 1,5$ or even 1,8$ into a 2,38$ pot.

River
Pot is 4,7$, and you have 7,75$ left, meaning this is an overbet. Even though you have two pair, you only beat a bluff, so this is a bluff catching situation. You have shown a lot of strenght by raising the flop and betting the turn, so this does not look like a good spot for him to bluff risking his entire stack. You are also not getting a good price. There are some busted draws, but also a number of hands, that now beat you. He could have JT that rivered a better two pair. Or maybe he backed into a straight or flush with hands like A5 of diamonds or KQ of hearts. So I would fold and live to fight another day. There is an old saying "never go broke in a limped pot", which I think apply here.

 

[Aballinamion]

All stacks are 100BB. It's my first hand at this table so I post a big bling from the CO. Villain also just sat down and posted a big blind UTG.

Villain checks, I check Jc3d, SB calls, BB checks

Flop comes 3hJd5h

Villain makes a pot sized bet (.38) and I raise is it to $1. SB and BB fold. Villain calls.

Turn comes 9d. Villain checks, I bet $1.15 and Villain calls.

River comes 10d. Villain shoves and I fold.

Is there any way I'm finding a call on the river? Should I have just called the flop?

I would like to give you advices but I don’t have a limping range from any position whether is a 6-MAX or 9-MAX table.
Once in a lifetime I elect to complete from the SB, but is very rare.
If you had a little patience and waited for the blinds to post this situation would not even occurred.
There are some types of hands that play best when we fold them preflop.
I have nothing against limping or posting OOP/IP. I just believe that in the long run is not a profitable move. But many players limp and have success.,
Now, J3, Q3, K3 and even A3 off-suited are very dominated hands. This was your first hand on the table, it becomes clear that you were playing two pair, because you bet a lot believing it was for value:
If you own a lot of Jacks and 3’s on your range which hands would you expect to be calling you, considering the high price you put on it?
Always ask yourself a lot of questions before entering a pot and before betting/raising/calling.
I strongly recommend Polished Poker Vol I
Read everything that fundiver199 had wrote. And read it again and again, it is a very precious analysis and commentary.

 

[James2023]

All stacks are 100BB. It's my first hand at this table so I post a big bling from the CO. Villain also just sat down and posted a big blind UTG.

Villain checks, I check Jc3d, SB calls, BB checks

Flop comes 3hJd5h

Villain makes a pot sized bet (.38) and I raise is it to $1. SB and BB fold. Villain calls.

Turn comes 9d. Villain checks, I bet $1.15 and Villain calls.

River comes 10d. Villain shoves and I fold.

Is there any way I'm finding a call on the river? Should I have just called the flop?

You just folded j3 off suit in general man and only call with J3 suited if its your last resort in a tournament or if your a whale looking to squeeze people out(careless risking). Your greatest downfall was calling in the first place dont use j3 off suit regardless if you would of won if you didn't fold. Your goal in a cash game is not to haemorrhage wait for AA KK QQ JJ 1010, and only play AKs KQs JQs J10s. Avoid the spaced out cards like AQ AJ bottom pairs cause your goal is to never lose and be able to commit your entire stack in hand and always understand the players at the table.. dont be making reckless calls base on emotions. Always make the odds work in your favour. Blinds remain the same in a cash game, learn to utilize certain postions at the table and to fold when you know your beat but dont fold a good hand if you know your dealing with a jerk at the table just call their raise if you connect you connect and if have any second thoughts think of the hands that player played before and he if stole any pots. So read everyone and base your decisions off theirs. Don't put yourself in bad situations. When you think of the players that would call to your hand. Say for instance You hold AK suited and you want to insure your chances of winning. Your going to wanna raise to get certain cards to call your hand and other to fold...so put yourself in their shoes think of what they would call a raise with or fold with. When you have a good hand your not going to want to let anyone limp into your hands because bullshit happens that way and there's no room for error for you cause you got this. The best thing you can do with a quality hand is raise high enough to increase your odds of winning. Going up against 2 people increases your odds of winning sometimes.... so raise high enough that only two player may call your raise. Your goal is to win and not get greedy. who cares what the villians doing catch him with his pants down when you got something good. You can either play him raise him and call his all in when you get something good or you can just call and let the dude hang himself when you know hes beat. If you play solid and lose just remember you will lose less then any of those players in the long run.

 

[fundiver199]

You just folded j3 off suit in general man and only call with J3 suited if its your last resort in a tournament or if your a whale looking to squeeze people out(careless risking).

He did not call. He posted a blind from CO in order to get dealt in, and since nobody raised, he then got a free look at the flop, just like the player in BB did.

 

[James2023]

He did not call. He posted a blind from CO in order to get dealt in, and since nobody raised, he then got a free look at the flop, just like the player in BB did.

Aww I see. Its been a while since I played any cash games. I forgot you had to do that. I don't think that rule applies for tournaments during late reg though or I never really noticed. Ill have to pay attention next time. Thanks

 

[Station_Master]

You just folded j3 off suit in general man and only call with J3 suited if its your last resort in a tournament or if your a whale looking to squeeze people out(careless risking). Your greatest downfall was calling in the first place dont use j3 off suit regardless if you would of won if you didn't fold. Your goal in a cash game is not to haemorrhage wait for AA KK QQ JJ 1010, and only play AKs KQs JQs J10s. Avoid the spaced out cards like AQ AJ bottom pairs cause your goal is to never lose and be able to commit your entire stack in hand and always understand the players at the table.. dont be making reckless calls base on emotions. Always make the odds work in your favour. Blinds remain the same in a cash game, learn to utilize certain postions at the table and to fold when you know your beat but dont fold a good hand if you know your dealing with a jerk at the table just call their raise if you connect you connect and if have any second thoughts think of the hands that player played before and he if stole any pots. So read everyone and base your decisions off theirs. Don't put yourself in bad situations. When you think of the players that would call to your hand. Say for instance You hold AK suited and you want to insure your chances of winning. Your going to wanna raise to get certain cards to call your hand and other to fold...so put yourself in their shoes think of what they would call a raise with or fold with. When you have a good hand your not going to want to let anyone limp into your hands because bullshit happens that way and there's no room for error for you cause you got this. The best thing you can do with a quality hand is raise high enough to increase your odds of winning. Going up against 2 people increases your odds of winning sometimes.... so raise high enough that only two player may call your raise. Your goal is to win and not get greedy. who cares what the villians doing catch him with his pants down when you got something good. You can either play him raise him and call his all in when you get something good or you can just call and let the dude hang himself when you know hes beat. If you play solid and lose just remember you will lose less then any of those players in the long run.

James this is super nitty advice. Avoid AQ - crazy!

As for the hand in question, I think by the time we get to the river it's a fold. Villain can have any two cards as a poster and I would suspect he has J5 or better two pair as a minimum. He could also have a wierd flush, straight or set. When you have shown so much aggression in the hand its unlikely he is trying to bluff you off your hand.

The river donk lead is wierd, once in a while he could be turning something into a bluff as he sees the board is scary but it's more likely a made hand worried you will check back. What did he have then or did you fold?

In terms of the flop raise I think its reasonable, as he could easily just have Jx and there is not that much that beats you. A call is also fine in position to keep bluffs in.

 

[James2023]

James this is super nitty advice. Avoid AQ - crazy!

As for the hand in question, I think by the time we get to the river it's a fold. Villain can have any two cards as a poster and I would suspect he has J5 or better two pair as a minimum. He could also have a wierd flush, straight or set. When you have shown so much aggression in the hand its unlikely he is trying to bluff you off your hand.

The river donk lead is wierd, once in a while he could be turning something into a bluff as he sees the board is scary but it's more likely a made hand worried you will check back. What did he have then or did you fold?

In terms of the flop raise I think its reasonable, as he could easily just have Jx and there is not that much that beats you. A call is also fine in position to keep bluffs in.

I would fold at any bet j3 cause its an easy way to set yourself up for failure, donks get lucky too. If you just got to the table you know nothing about anyone not unless you had their hand history from before and even then that doesn't really determine to much because people do improve.

 

[Station_Master]

I would fold at any bet j3 cause its an easy way to set yourself up for failure, donks get lucky too. If you just got to the table you know nothing about anyone not unless you had their hand history from before and even then that doesn't really determine to much because people do improve.

Yes J3 definitely a fold normally but hero posted and didnt put more money in preflop.

I wouldn't recommend posting but sometimes the sites do it automatically

 

[Tony_McTony]

Posting
The general advice is to not post but wait for the blinds to come around to you. However at a full ring table posting from CO is not terrible, because you get to see 6 hands for the price of 1BB, and while you miss the best seat (BTN), you also avoid the two worst seats (SB and BB). So I am actually ok with this as a way to not waste to much time waiting for blinds to come around. But for obvious reasons we should not post UTG, as this opponent did, and I would also never post in a 6-max game.

Preflop
No reason to raise junk, and if someone else raise, just fold. But they gave you a free look at the flop, which is great.

Flop
Obviously a great flop, since you flopped top and bottom, and while its not the nuts, you are very likely to have the best hand. I agree with your decision to fastplay this hand. The full pot sized bet into three opponents indicate, the Villain has at least something, and if he is bad enough to post UTG, he is not going to bet for value and then fold to a raise. You will probably not get much action from the players behind you, but even if you just call, this also looks strong due to his sizing, and they might still fold.

You also have a quite vulnerable hand, which dont mind some protection especially multiway. There is a flushdraw and some straightdraws out there, and there is also a large potential for getting counterfeited, because one of your pairs is so low. A 5 will pretty much kill your hand, and so will a board pairing runout like 4-4, 6-6, 7-7 etc. As for sizing I think, its fine to make it a dollar, but I also think, you can go a bit larger like maybe 1,2$.

Turn
Pretty safe card even though you now lose to T9. But thats a very small portion of his range. I would also bet again, and once again I think, you can go a bit larger and still get pretty much the same amount of calls. If he had top pair or a good draw, he is not folding, because you make it 1,5$ or even 1,8$ into a 2,38$ pot.

River
Pot is 4,7$, and you have 7,75$ left, meaning this is an overbet. Even though you have two pair, you only beat a bluff, so this is a bluff catching situation. You have shown a lot of strenght by raising the flop and betting the turn, so this does not look like a good spot for him to bluff risking his entire stack. You are also not getting a good price. There are some busted draws, but also a number of hands, that now beat you. He could have JT that rivered a better two pair. Or maybe he backed into a straight or flush with hands like A5 of diamonds or KQ of hearts. So I would fold and live to fight another day. There is an old saying "never go broke in a limped pot", which I think apply here.

Thanks for such a detailed response. I agree with everything you wrote here.

I obviously did like the flop a lot and thats why I raised. I think you're right that a bigger bet would get called often here.

I also agree that the 9 of diamonds was a good card for me and that the $1.15 raise does seem pretty timid. Once again a bigger bet would probably get called enough to be profitable.

One thing that confused me with this hand and made me think about calling was that villain didn't raise pre flop. What hands would villain not raise with preflop (so not a pocket pair), then make a pot sized bet and call a raise on the flop with, then make a hand with 9d10d.

 

[fundiver199]

Aww I see. Its been a while since I played any cash games. I forgot you had to do that. I don't think that rule applies for tournaments during late reg though or I never really noticed. Ill have to pay attention next time. Thanks

You are right, that posting does not exist in tournaments. The reason for that is, that players late registering does not get any advantage in relation to paying the blinds. In cash games though, if posting was not required, players could sit in on BTN, and then sit out again, when the blinds come to them, and by doing so never pay the blinds.

One thing that confused me with this hand and made me think about calling was that villain didn't raise pre flop. What hands would villain not raise with preflop (so not a pocket pair), then make a pot sized bet and call a raise on the flop with, then make a hand with 9d10d.

Sometimes its important to not overthink the situation and level ourselfes into making a bad call. Even if its difficult to understand, how he can arrive here with a hand, that beat you, there are a lot of them, and his line is extremely strong. We also know, that he is not a good player, because good players dont post UTG, where its only one more hand left to get dealt in. So his logic is likely not the same as yours.

Maybe he pottet the flop with A5 / A3 of diamonds, because he just wanted everyone to fold, and then he called your raise to draw. On the turn he picked up a flushdraw, so he continued, as he should. And then when he rivered the nuts, he moved all-in for value. Something like this is more likely than him pulling off some amazing bluff against a player, who raised him on the flop and continued betting the turn.