$10 NL HE 6-max: Fold FH on fourway flop?

[blueskies]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.05/$.10

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

VP$IP

0

Currency

$

First rotation at a table with four of the five other players being unknowns. The known player is pretty LAG but he isnt involved in this hand.

I have 10c10d utg and I open to 30c. This is my 6th hand at the table and first raise. I had folded all previous five hands.

CO calls BTN calls and BB calls. All three are unknown to me.

Flop is three Qs. I dont remember the suits.

BB donk bets 89c into $1.20 pot.

If it is headsup I definitely call as it seems unlikely hes donk betting like that with a Q. Most likely he has a small or medium pp. But there are two guys to act behind me and one of them could have a Q.

And against unknowns I have been wrong about them not having the nuts when they are donk betting.

I decided to fold and get them next time.

After I folded the other two folded too. If I knew they would fold I would have called.

Too weak?

 

[fundiver199]

I probably peal at least one street here, since I dont think, anyone is ever donking out with quads. At least that makes no sense, since quads have nothing to protect from. The players behind could have it, but its very unlikely, since 3 Qs are already accounted for. Most of the time I would expect them to fold, and if someone overcall or raise, then you can reevaluate and perhaps not invest any more in the hand.

 

[canbora]

Too weak.

This is just my opinion mind you. This isn't anything from a solver.. this isn't something passed down from upon high. AKA a top known professional etc.

Two things you never count on..a straight flush and quads. Just assume they do not have it. They are so extremely rare that it's not mathematically correct to assume so.

So what does that leave us having? Pocket tens. That's pretty damn good. That means you have to assume somebody has pocket jacks or better. The math on that doesn't add up either, unless of course you have reason to believe so. But just based on pure odds more than likely they do not.

You folded the best hand.

PS: Also... There is no such thing as donk betting. There's two kinds of people at the poker table, Those who bet and those who fold.

 

[fundiver199]

Two things you never count on..a straight flush and quads. Just assume they do not have it.

In this spot there is certainly no reason to assume, someone has quads. However if hero had continued, and then someone raise the river after just calling or checking the earlier streets, that will often be quads.

That means you have to assume somebody has pocket jacks or better.

I would assume, that KK or AA almost always 3-bet preflop, especially when there is already 1-2 callers. So in reality hero might be behind to JJ. JJ would make sense for all opponents to play like this. But its one hand, and if we run TT into JJ on a great board for both hands, its pretty much just a cooler. And while we should perhaps not go broke, folding to a single bet is very nitty.

PS: Also... There is no such thing as donk betting.

Ha ha. It is just a traditional term for leading into the preflop raiser. And in this particular situation it does not seem to be a good strategy with any hand, which give at least some merit to the name. But the more neutral term is leading, and maybe it is better to use that

 

[Station_Master]

My instinct would be to call one bet and fold to any further aggression.

It's a tough spot as your hand cant really improve. But the donk could certainly be 66, 77 etc that would likely shut down after the flop gets called. CO and BU basically have to fold unless they have the Q as now they are against 2 players who could have the Q and your range also includes AA and KK. Even JJ would be in a tough spot.

I that type of scenario playing out here 30%+ of the time, so I think ok to call the lead.

 

[gustav197poker]

I'm afraid we don't have enough information about the V and about the table. This is of vital importance and could make us change our predefined game strategy.
It's fair to say that we shouldn't focus too much on playing balanced here, but we should base our decisions with some logic. The probability that we hit a full house on the flop and us with pocket pair is: 0.98% approx. That's pretty little. Furthermore we have TT, only surpassed by Qx and JJ+ which is very unlikely (not impossible) that V has that hand and has played it slow in preflop.
I understand the issue of your position, but you must prioritize the fact that you practically do not have the information you need to make a super exploitative fold.

 

[puzzlefish]

Someone "donk betting" on that flop isn't doing it for protection. They are usually doing it to build the pot so that they can play for stacks. That doesn't mean that they have the fourth queen. They could have Ax and are trying to hit an ace. They could be a bluffy player trying to steal the pot. But one thing I don't see frequently is someone doing that with a small PP. It's definitely at least an average PP but you could very easily find yourself looking up at a big PP when you are comparing it to yours at showdown.

When it comes down to it, if you're not comfortable with stacking off with Q full of tens, then it is what it is. I personally don't think it's necessarily wrong. Perhaps you have a better perception of your table than you are letting on. It's mathematically improbable for someone to flop quads but also people generally underbluff.

One final thought. Why bother calling the donk bet instead of raising it? Hero is holding a relatively weak full house here and maybe shouldn't want to wait for a turn or river that brings that ace from space? Or is hero really better off being passive here with calling?

 

[canbora]

In this spot there is certainly no reason to assume, someone has quads. However if hero had continued, and then someone raise the river after just calling or checking the earlier streets, that will often be quads.

I would assume, that KK or AA almost always 3-bet preflop, especially when there is already 1-2 callers. So in reality hero might be behind to JJ. JJ would make sense for all opponents to play like this. But its one hand, and if we run TT into JJ on a great board for both hands, its pretty much just a cooler. And while we should perhaps not go broke, folding to a single bet is very nitty.

Ha ha. It is just a traditional term for leading into the preflop raiser. And in this particular situation it does not seem to be a good strategy with any hand, which give at least some merit to the name. But the more neutral term is leading, and maybe it is better to use that

I think we both sort of said the same thing, simply just with different words. Same destination, different path.

And that being, he should have continued here. At this point, that was no reason to fold.

Lol this reminds me of that one famous hand... from.. Selbst? Is that her name. She had Aces full of sevens, against her opponent who had quad 7's. She made the call and shes like, "I almost folded." lol...like, no you weren't, no you werent. And if you did, you're wrong for doing that. Like she even said, A7 would have played the same way, and thats correct, and even more likely.

I did see this though on another hand, younger asian girl, folded AA QQQ to, I believe AAA QQ. Everyone said it was a great read. I think it was paranoxia. How do you fold that? You just have to accept mathematical variance. OF COURSE any time you dont have the nuts you always fear the nuts. So it looks like you're making some sort of genius read.

 

[blueskies]

Yeah now that I have had more time to think about it, definitely shoulda at least called one bet. BOL only allows 10 secs per decision so I just had to pick something and I went for the fold.

Against regs I would definitely call, but against these unknown guys I have a tough time dealing with the out of line moves cuz it could mean anything. I just don't have a feel.

On BOL 10NL is the bottom tier so it's like 2NL on another site. I've encountered way too many random dudes who will come out blasting with the nuts. I would think that they don't have it cuz why would they bet like that and risk folding everyone out, and then I would get burned.

With 3 unknown guys that I cannot figure out yet I decided to just lose the 30c and pick a better spot.

 

[canbora]

Yeah now that I have had more time to think about it, definitely shoulda at least called one bet. BOL only allows 10 secs per decision so I just had to pick something and I went for the fold.

Against regs I would definitely call, but against these unknown guys I have a tough time dealing with the out of line moves cuz it could mean anything. I just don't have a feel.

On BOL 10NL is the bottom tier so it's like 2NL on another site. I've encountered way too many random dudes who will come out blasting with the nuts. I would think that they don't have it cuz why would they bet like that and risk folding everyone out, and then I would get burned.

With 3 unknown guys that I cannot figure out yet I decided to just lose the 30c and pick a better spot.

Bud, you may have very well in fact made the best move. Someone could have had that Q, or a larger overpair or overcard and paired up and beat you. It's VERY possible. I commend you for your discipline to lay down big hands.

And I mean .... It's 10s, strong hand , but not unbeatable by any stretch.

 

[fundiver199]

Against regs I would definitely call, but against these unknown guys I have a tough time dealing with the out of line moves cuz it could mean anything. I just don't have a feel.

But if we dont have any feel or read, then we should just revert to basic theory and call with the top of our range. The guy leading out could have quads, but if you dont have a read, he could also have complete air. The players behind you will pretty much inform you about their hand, when the action is on them. And if BB bomb the turn again after getting called, then maybe you can begin to give him a bit more credit and consider folding.

I plugged the situation into Equilab, and if all opponents are calling with 20% of hands but 3-betting QQ+, AK, then you had almost 50% equity, which is massive in a 4-way pot. And this does not mean, you were behind the other 50% of the time. It just mean, that they all had equity from random overcards. So folding here is really nitty, and its highly likely, you folded the best hand.

 

[Aballinamion]

First rotation at a table with four of the five other players being unknowns. The known player is pretty LAG but he isnt involved in this hand.

I have 10c10d utg and I open to 30c. This is my 6th hand at the table and first raise. I had folded all previous five hands.

CO calls BTN calls and BB calls. All three are unknown to me.

Flop is three Qs. I dont remember the suits.

BB donk bets 89c into $1.20 pot.

If it is headsup I definitely call as it seems unlikely hes donk betting like that with a Q. Most likely he has a small or medium pp. But there are two guys to act behind me and one of them could have a Q.

And against unknowns I have been wrong about them not having the nuts when they are donk betting.

I decided to fold and get them next time.

After I folded the other two folded too. If I knew they would fold I would have called.

Too weak?

I agree with your overall decision. This dry flop texture doesn't give too much room for imagination.

 

[pokernomad]

Pre-flop
I think you can discount AA, KK,QQ? AK in villains range - they should be 3betting to isolate so as each player calls I would put them on PP, broadway type hands, or hands like suited connectors.

On the flop
With the flop QQQ, you can discount QQ, players may have a hand like AQ, KQ, QJ, QT, Q9 but with only 1 queen left, you can't worry about this at this stage
You should be worried about JJ but what else?
Donk betting is usually strong, but I would peel at least once - I think you can only be concerned with JJ and maybe they show up with a Q sometimes, but peel and if they bet big on the turn you can decide if you want to continue
BB range is super wide - they are incentivised to call all kinds of trash preflop getting great pot odds, so I can see them betting 22 on the flop, which you crush.