Final Table End Game

Lately I have been playing in many MTT tournaments online, low to mid-stakes somewhat successfully. The problem arises when I make it to the final table, I can't seem to bridge the gap between cashing in at 3rd to 1st. This goes for online just as much as live. I play tight aggressive in the early stages, then loosen my starting requirements as needed. Does anyone have any advice?
-Nick

After three tries in MTT 180 ppl 1 USD buyin I ended third. According to what you wrote you make it to final table which is good - than you must observe tightly how the chipleader plays and adjust the strategy to his. Fold things like Q6 suited is good way to start according to my opinion. I will watch this thread tightly - because it seems very interesting to me. Good luck next time

Observe your oponents, try to find a weak player (if there is one) if you do - try to isolate them as much as possible to releave them of their stack. Also try not to play identical in similar situation, stay unpredictable. Most important thing for final table should be - don't play passively - play aggressive, a lot!

First of all, you must pay close attention to the table dynamics. Is there someone in particular that is playing more aggressively than the rest? Is there someone stealing on every orbit? Things like that. then you must adjust by widening or tightening up your range to play against them.

also you must be 3betting lighter if someone is opening looser.

It is very situational really so there is no answer to your question except it depends. generally though luck plays a huge part and keep in mind that you should not play too passive and allow your stack to diminish. It is key to steal blinds whenever you feel the spot arises.

My 2 cents.

in thouse reare times when in mtt here is left 5players , i louse because lack of patienc,thats my weak spot.

My final table performance depends a lot of my chip stack. More than cards, stack have a huge importance in a final table. If you have a huge stack raise a lot, be aggressive, make them pay, use position to squeeze them. Other way, if you have a medium and a short stack you need to be objective. Aggressiveness against big stacks only will make you lose chips, believe me.

I have been on both sides, both chip leader and short/medium stack. Most of the time the final table consists of medium stacks going all in a lot of the times, and it's hard for me to call of my whole stack with a mediocre starting hand. Then there are those times I get a good starting hand, QQ for instance, and it gets beat with something like ace or king-rag. I guess that's the luck aspect, unfortunately. Defending blinds is also another reason I can't get to the very top, I never know when to fight back aggressively, or let it go and wait for a better chance.

Nick12 said:

Lately I have been playing in many MTT tournaments online, low to mid-stakes somewhat successfully. The problem arises when I make it to the final table, I can't seem to bridge the gap between cashing in at 3rd to 1st. This goes for online just as much as live. I play tight aggressive in the early stages, then loosen my starting requirements as needed. Does anyone have any advice?
-Nick

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You should be more willing to enter the game against players with less than you stack up against players than the big stack. The explanation is simple: first you can "knock out" of the game, while the latter can "knock out" you. Moreover, the stack is less than the player, the more likely that it will be decided to play a weak hand and vice versa.
Against a player whose stack of 10 or more times smaller than yours, you should go all-in with any two cards (assuming that the other players have folded). There is a high probability that he will fold and you will get the bank immediately, because it runs the risk of "fly" out of the tournament, and you run the risk of only one-tenth of his stack. If he still will respond to your bid, you have still a chance to make the best hand and win the showdown.

katyuha444 said:

You should be more willing to enter the game against players with less than you stack up against players than the big stack. The explanation is simple: first you can "knock out" of the game, while the latter can "knock out" you. Moreover, the stack is less than the player, the more likely that it will be decided to play a weak hand and vice versa.
Against a player whose stack of 10 or more times smaller than yours, you should go all-in with any two cards (assuming that the other players have folded). There is a high probability that he will fold and you will get the bank immediately, because it runs the risk of "fly" out of the tournament, and you run the risk of only one-tenth of his stack. If he still will respond to your bid, you have still a chance to make the best hand and win the showdown.

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Wouldn't I want to get involved with larger stacks because of the implied odds factor? Or are you just referring to All-in shove or call situations?

kmichaels said:

My final table performance depends a lot of my chip stack. More than cards, stack have a huge importance in a final table. If you have a huge stack raise a lot, be aggressive, make them pay, use position to squeeze them. Other way, if you have a medium and a short stack you need to be objective. Aggressiveness against big stacks only will make you lose chips, believe me.

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You have to rethink your strategy and not pay so much attention to stacks but to hands and tendencies,position and the right spots. Stack size is also important but your analysis makes it sound like you need to maybe read some books and realize WHY you are doing WHAT and WHEN.

Nick!, Forget about stack sizes. Forget about it completely. Do know anything about ranges? And fold equity? Blind stealing? And min 4 bet bluffing? Table image? Are you using a HUD? Where I'm getting at is that it is extremely complex to get into how someone can win a final table. There are so many factors tha thou have to pay attention to. A small example might be: I heard you guys saying not to play against the chip leader cause your gonna lose. The truth is that the chip leader might be the ONLY person you want to be 3 betting cause he is the most likely to be opening looser cause he has the most chips. Just remember to do it with the right hand. But then again this is based on the assumption that he has gotten out of line. Etc etc etc. This is an endless topic.

vinylspiros said:

Nick!, Forget about stack sizes. Forget about it completely. Do know anything about ranges? And fold equity? Blind stealing? And min 4 bet bluffing? Table image? Are you using a HUD? Where I'm getting at is that it is extremely complex to get into how someone can win a final table. There are so many factors tha thou have to pay attention to. A small example might be: I heard you guys saying not to play against the chip leader cause your gonna lose. The truth is that the chip leader might be the ONLY person you want to be 3 betting cause he is the most likely to be opening looser cause he has the most chips. Just remember to do it with the right hand. But then again this is based on the assumption that he has gotten out of line. Etc etc etc. This is an endless topic.

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I do know the basics of what you mentioned. From what I have seen so far, the ranges at the final table are so wide it's hard for me to tell when to attack. I am able to steal enough blinds to survive due to the table image I have normally generated by this far in a large tournament. I have read a few books, and have a couple more I have yet to get into. What is a "HUD"??

Nick12 said:

I do know the basics of what you mentioned. From what I have seen so far, the ranges at the final table are so wide it's hard for me to tell when to attack. I am able to steal enough blinds to survive due to the table image I have normally generated by this far in a large tournament. I have read a few books, and have a couple more I have yet to get into. What is a "HUD"??

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Google HUD poker. And then google pokertracker and hm2. I can't get into details cause I'm on a cellphone right now,but you will get the picture. Everyone's using Huds nowadays. Very important tool for online players. Gives u stats on everyone by keeping track of how many hands they play and how. Read about it.

vinylspiros said:

Nick!, Forget about stack sizes. Forget about it completely. Do know anything about ranges? And fold equity? Blind stealing? And min 4 bet bluffing? Table image? Are you using a HUD? Where I'm getting at is that it is extremely complex to get into how someone can win a final table. There are so many factors tha thou have to pay attention to. A small example might be: I heard you guys saying not to play against the chip leader cause your gonna lose. The truth is that the chip leader might be the ONLY person you want to be 3 betting cause he is the most likely to be opening looser cause he has the most chips. Just remember to do it with the right hand. But then again this is based on the assumption that he has gotten out of line. Etc etc etc. This is an endless topic.

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forget about stack sizes? you mad? haha. however, i do agree with your other points you made. but no way should he forget about stack sizes. you think he should light 3 bet the big stack when a guys sitting in the bb with 5 bb's? or open shove on the button in to two 30 bb stacks with A rag? this play would be totally fine if they had 15 and less bb's. also if a guy utg has 1 bb it would be suicide to go bust on the current hand if he is almost certainly out next. stack sizes should be taken in to consideration along side 3/4 betting, weak players, good spots to steal, how tight/ loose someone is playing. also hud is over rated imo, i used it for a bit but don't really see the need for it tbh. as long as you are able to concentrate near the end of a tourny and not play tons of screens at that point i think it's fine as you can pick up on most opponents tendencies. of course it will work for some though

indahood193 said:

forget about stack sizes? you mad? haha. however, i do agree with your other points you made. but no way should he forget about stack sizes. you think he should light 3 bet the big stack when a guys sitting in the bb with 5 bb's? or open shove on the button in to two 30 bb stacks with A rag? this play would be totally fine if they had 15 and less bb's. also if a guy utg has 1 bb it would be suicide to go bust on the current hand if he is almost certainly out next. stack sizes should be taken in to consideration along side 3/4 betting, weak players, good spots to steal, how tight/ loose someone is playing. also hud is over rated imo, i used it for a bit but don't really see the need for it tbh. as long as you are able to concentrate near the end of a tourny and not play tons of screens at that point i think it's fine as you can pick up on most opponents tendencies. of course it will work for some though

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going to have to completely disagree with you here, if you have Ace rag why would you not shove into a 30BB stack, but you would a 15BB stack
unless of course your stack is that small that you need a double up, in which case Ace rag might be appropriate to steal with
but to say dont do this against a 30BB stack but do it against a 15BB is crazy, because whilst they have 30BB they have a playable stack and have no need to get involved with all in situations as much, once they get to 15BB they are prety much looking for the double up and will call you down lighter.

This is the point he was also trying to make about giving the opponent fold equity,

as for the point of dont do it because of 1 single opponent who possibly could get knocked out, well thats bad advice too, were not meant to be thinking about "laddering up" were playing for the win so what difference would it make if you shove now, or shove when the next opponent is out...... well if you wait then you have a lower stack and reduce opponents fold equity even more so later

kingmunchers said:

going to have to completely disagree with you here, if you have Ace rag why would you not shove into a 30BB stack, but you would a 15BB stack
unless of course your stack is that small that you need a double up, in which case Ace rag might be appropriate to steal with
but to say dont do this against a 30BB stack but do it against a 15BB is crazy, because whilst they have 30BB they have a playable stack and have no need to get involved with all in situations as much, once they get to 15BB they are prety much looking for the double up and will call you down lighter.

This is the point he was also trying to make about giving the opponent fold equity,

as for the point of dont do it because of 1 single opponent who possibly could get knocked out, well thats bad advice too, were not meant to be thinking about "laddering up" were playing for the win so what difference would it make if you shove now, or shove when the next opponent is out...... well if you wait then you have a lower stack and reduce opponents fold equity even more so later

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well thought out post. i agree. +1

kingmunchers said:

going to have to completely disagree with you here, if you have Ace rag why would you not shove into a 30BB stack, but you would a 15BB stack
unless of course your stack is that small that you need a double up, in which case Ace rag might be appropriate to steal with
but to say dont do this against a 30BB stack but do it against a 15BB is crazy, because whilst they have 30BB they have a playable stack and have no need to get involved with all in situations as much, once they get to 15BB they are prety much looking for the double up and will call you down lighter.

This is the point he was also trying to make about giving the opponent fold equity,

as for the point of dont do it because of 1 single opponent who possibly could get knocked out, well thats bad advice too, were not meant to be thinking about "laddering up" were playing for the win so what difference would it make if you shove now, or shove when the next opponent is out...... well if you wait then you have a lower stack and reduce opponents fold equity even more so later

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its clearly more profitable to open shove any hand with 15bb than 30bb, this includes Ax

kingmunchers said:

going to have to completely disagree with you here, if you have Ace rag why would you not shove into a 30BB stack, but you would a 15BB stack
unless of course your stack is that small that you need a double up, in which case Ace rag might be appropriate to steal with
but to say dont do this against a 30BB stack but do it against a 15BB is crazy, because whilst they have 30BB they have a playable stack and have no need to get involved with all in situations as much, once they get to 15BB they are prety much looking for the double up and will call you down lighter.

This is the point he was also trying to make about giving the opponent fold equity,

as for the point of dont do it because of 1 single opponent who possibly could get knocked out, well thats bad advice too, were not meant to be thinking about "laddering up" were playing for the win so what difference would it make if you shove now, or shove when the next opponent is out...... well if you wait then you have a lower stack and reduce opponents fold equity even more so later

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no way. so if you are sitting on the button with Ax v two 10 bb stacks you don't open shove Ax? you are losing so much value imo. their ranges are so wide the majority of time they are both going to fold, they may want to ladder so even if they have a small pair they may not want to gamble and look for better spots. usually players at ft's are pretty tight, so putting the most pressure on them is the most profitable way to chip up. no point in getting in wars with your fellow big stack just because you have a big ego. not saying that you should just keep folding to his raises but you deffoo shouldn't be getting in to 6 bet wars when you can ko shorter stacks with much less variance, whilst also moving up pay jumps.

yeah of course your sole intention isn't just to ladder up, but this has to be taken in to consideration as well. just saying f it i'm going for the win just doesn't make sence when there can be such lower variance spots later on in the tourny. for example if there is a poor player at the table you know you are eventually going to stack him, so say you have AQ with 30 bb's it isn't optimal just to stack off v him pre flop and flip for a ton of chips if he is spewy post flop and tilts after losing hands. do agree you should be going to win of course. but on some occasions this isn't possible and thus getting a 3rd is better than having a big ego (not saying you but a player in general) and 6 bet shoving 9 10 and busting in 9th. anyway more than one way to skin a cat on occasions i will play like a maniac 4 and 5 betting with garbage if the situation seems to require it. but really depends on your final table some times it is fine to take the lower variance route and pick your spots, chipping up off of poor players/ short stacks, then try push your edge short handed v the good players

Thank you all for the input. I have been getting more experience at the final table which is helping a lot. The other day I cashed out in 2nd out of 471 people, now it's time to work on my heads up play a little because I feel that is also a weak area for me. Both in real tournaments I've played and televised events, it seems heads-up play is playing basically any hand that's dealt. Any thoughts on this? The tournament I came in 2nd I definetly was in position to win, because I had about double the chip stack that my opponent had going into heads-up play.

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This video
it gives us game insight from being the smallest FT stack to winning the tournament priceless advice and in game experience for online mtt players

When I'm in situation like this I play very quietly (if I have average stack and blinds are big) and waiting for good hand. If you aren't chip leader you shouldn't play aggressive.

Nick12 said:

Thank you all for the input. I have been getting more experience at the final table which is helping a lot. The other day I cashed out in 2nd out of 471 people, now it's time to work on my heads up play a little because I feel that is also a weak area for me. Both in real tournaments I've played and televised events, it seems heads-up play is playing basically any hand that's dealt. Any thoughts on this? The tournament I came in 2nd I definetly was in position to win, because I had about double the chip stack that my opponent had going into heads-up play.

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quite common for heads up play to be weak for tournament players imo. i basically only play tournaments, occasional live cash but never hu sng's or hu cash or whatever. so don't get a ton of experience to work on it as it isn't all the time you get hu in a tourny. i feel i am a fav v a random player but v someone fairly competent probably not. it's weird as when i have played a lot of hu in the past at times i managed to get quite good but atm i amn't really imo. got to hu 3 times today in sng mtt's and lost all 3 lol albeit pretty sure i was 2nd in chips going in all 3 times. know i contradicted myself from what i said about it being rare earlier but don't usually play sng's mainly just mtt's.