Weakest Play Ever?

Live game. Three players left. Blinds 2000/4000.
Stacks:
Button 12000
SB 26000
BB 4000

Button folds.

Small blind folds?!?

Big blind gets a walk, wins next hand, wins tournament.

Was it idiotic for the big stack to fold? If she called, she would be geting 3-1 pot odds against a big blind that didn't necessarily have any good cards either? Shouldn't she have called with any two cards in that spot?

I see this is SnG's quite a bit. A person raises all-in which like 20% more then the Big blind and the big blind lays their hand down. Also when the BB is all in for like 733 and the small blind wont call 333 to win 1400 chip pot with the antes. I guess some people don't understand that they should call with any hand in those spots

If you are not willing to raise, don't bet it.

If you simply allow the BB to see the flop for free, you increase the amount that he can walk away with if you miss the flop and somehow feel compelled to fold (now that would the weakest move of all time.). Not to mention you help keep him in the game. (I am assuming this is tourney, because you said, "Three players left.")

The implied odds are less than 3 to 1 ........

You are actually looking at 6000 in the pot with 2000 from your SB which is the 3 to 1 you mentioned. But the BB already has 1/2 his stack in and knows he is giving up another 1/2 of his remaining stack on the next hand. He's either all in or fold from this point, and you know this even before you bet.

You most likely will not be playing his cards, you will be playing his luck. But if he plays, the Implied odds give you a pay out of (6000 + 4000) / 4000 to 1 = 2.5 to 1. That means you will need at least the upper part of the top 28.6% of the overall hands after the flop to take the pot. That should suggest that your range is tighter than the 33% from your previous 3 to 1 odds you gave. Even though that it's not that much of a difference, it is just enough to consider because you either double him up or send him home.

If you don't have a good enough hand to represent that kind of leverage preflop, then fold, and wait for the next round to simply dictate his demise. But if you do play it, play it with a raise preflop to force the choice on him now, while he has less information.

Emrald Onyxx said:

Stuff Emrald wrote

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None of that makes any sense, and none of it applies to what the opening post wrote. Do you just hit the reply button and start talking about whatever comes to your mind?

And yes, the SB should have called with any two. Folding there is *SOOOO TERRIBLE* that it blows my mind. Its gotta be like borderline collusion, or the small blind hates money or something.

Yes, I think it's a no-brainer call with ATC. I busted a guy out of a tournament the other day in this type of situation. I had 72o and he had 73o. I hit the 3 on the river to finish it.

Thinking about it, I'm surprised that this doesn't happen more often. Some people simply don't pay attention to stack sizes whatsoever. They just see a bad hand, and fold without thinking.

I saw this situation the other day. We were 5-handed at the final table of a 45-player SNG. (the numbers are rough estimates)

Blinds: 600/1200 (75 ante)
BB: 18,000
Shortstack: 1500

The shortstack shoves UTG, and instead of calling 300 to win a pot of 3675, the BB insta-folds. As soon we saw this, the rest of the table raised the BB's blinds with no fear and he folded his way out of the game in a few orbits. He gave himself zero chance of winning, regardless of the cards he was being dealt.

Implied odds on an all in pre flop pot is something you should elaborate on Emrald...

Yeah this is really terrible and a snap call with any cards at all.

c9h13no3 said:

None of that makes any sense, and none of it applies to what the opening post wrote. Do you just hit the reply button and start talking about whatever comes to your mind?

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I don't agree with the post either but no need to be rude.



It's a call with ATC even if the cards are face up and he's behind. Horrible fold.

I think its common in low stakes tournaments.. people get towards the end and the blinds are such that noone feels confortable playing.

People are looking at their cards and hoping to see AA, they see J8 and think .. 'I cant play that' when in reality the blinds are so large that its pretty much a lottery.

Whereas more experienced players are looking at the situation as a whole and thinking 'It probably wont win.. but next orbit ill have even less to play with' so its as good a situation as any to push.

Wow. If that was me I'm shoving with ATC.

I dont think so much and call BB.. That is a tournament and you need to push out players..
may be i have weak cards if i lose,its not problem..next hand or other hands i'll get high cards
someone must call

Maybe I missed something in your explanation C9, so to clarify then............

it's okay to call but not raise?

It took me a while to find this , but I finally did. Phil Gordon's Little green Book.

"Say I'm playing heads up at the end of a tournament with the greatest player in the world. We both have 25 BB. If I move all in on every single hand, even if my opponent knows what I'm doing, they can't beat me more than 65% of the time. Do they call me when they pick up A7? If they do, and they are against the worst possible hand of 72, they will be at a 75% - 25% favorite. If they are up against a hand like 83, they will be a 63% - 35% favorite. Against a small pocket pair they will be a 45% - 55% underdog. Against A8or better they will be a 75% - 25% to lose.

The point is: They would probably have to call with A7, knowing that I am willing to move in on every hand, but they will never be more than about 60% against any two random cards."

So yes you can play with any two cards.........that part doesn't matter much.

However with information, why would you call? Why would you not just raise? He either plays it or he does not. Why not make him decide this pre-flop?

If the intent is to get him to fold, then the hand is more likely to fold if it's an all or nothing situation at preflop (which in my mind, it already is). If he calls and wins with all in, he will still be forced to play the next orbit as the SS with just 16K or 4 BB. If you call at 2000 and he wins by a check down, he still has 12K or 3 BB. I can't imagine why you would play the hand with a weak stance when the difference is only 1 BB. And I think you would not have much fold equity past the flop because you only called preflop. Mostly because he will already feel pot committed and you only called at pre-flop.

Again, if you are not willing to raise, don't bet it.

As long as the BB doesn't have a pocket pair, I'm in great shape with ATC. With 5 cards to come, anything can happen. Especially if I push with cards that are not likely dominated. 2,3,4,5,6,7,8. Face cards I would a little more nervous with. Aces *deep breath* seems like everytime you push with a weak ace someone has you dominated.

Still, I'm pushin' with ATC. Put the other person to the test.

Maybe I'm the only one looking at this with a mathematical logic?

Choosing to call is just as bad as choosing to fold. If you are going to "play" a hand, "play" it with someone that has the chips to play it with you. If I chose to call, then I am choosing to "play" the hand. With the implied odds, I would need to have in my hand to enough to cover the pot. Mostly because the other guy WILL call any raise you put up postflop. Especially after you follow him into the flop with nothing more than a call. If I don't have the pot odds covered after the flop....then I just became a donk and he gets the chance to push me off. You might just be better off folding preflop. But I think everyone already knows that the odds are given that you don't have to fold preflop because you are already given odds to win.

But if I raise, he has nothing to go on, except for the pot odds that I now give him. But the win odds are the same. So now he is left with less information to go on and he's forced to consider calling your bet that you now show equity in. Either force him to play all or nothing, or just fold yourself.

I see this as a snap call. Doesn't make sense to let the BB walk.

emrald, none of what you're writing makes sense because the big blind is all-in on his blind. you can't raise, you can only call. he doesn't have any more chips after that

when you list stacks, you list whatever their stack is before posting the blind. if you didn't do it that way, you'd have to write that the BB has a stack of 0, which wouldn't make much sense

combuboom said:

emrald, none of what you're writing makes sense because the big blind is all-in on his blind.

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Not to mention that he keeps yammering on about implied odds... which can't exist if the BB is all in... I honestly don't understand anything he's saying.

Anyways, the situation is this: Give the BB 2000 free chips, or pay 2000 to have a shot at winning 6000 and knocking the BB out of the tournament.

Even if the BB flipped his hand over and had aces, I wouldn't fold any hand that had a 15% chance or so to beat aces.

I disagree with everyone here. IMSO:


I think in this particular situation, without holding something sane, a fold is ok. The only other sane alternative most of the time is to force BB all in, even with ATC.

SB at this point is poised to make the best money, but that doesn't mean SB has to force the issue just now. In she (he) folded here then the cards presented were not something he(she) felt comfortable with. His (her) stack will allow a bit of latitude as to just how to finish this tourney.

If this was down to the final 2, things get very different, and ATC is what we all end up starting with, regardless. But at this point, she(he) can hope his(her) 2 villains dispose of one or the other.

So, a call here is worse than a fold and worse than a shove, and is the absolutely worst move IMSO, that SB can make here.

In essence this is an ICM situation, but ICM does not mandate calling from behind.

As far as that poll goes, IMSO, there is absolutely, never a time for SB to CALL in this situation, it is clearly a fold or shove situation.

I do understand Emrald

combuboom said:

emrald, none of what you're writing makes sense because the big blind is all-in on his blind. you can't raise, you can only call. he doesn't have any more chips after that

when you list stacks, you list whatever their stack is before posting the blind. if you didn't do it that way, you'd have to write that the BB has a stack of 0, which wouldn't make much sense

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Thank-you for pointing that out. I'm sorry I cluttered the thread with a misunderstanding. I don't know why I was thinking BB had 8 total. But I would still stand by my point if that were that were the situation.

I just couldn't understand why everyone was saying just call. It made no sense.

DJ a call is for 2k into a 6k pot. The BB is already all in. There is no option to shove, it's the same as calling.

(this is what emrald was missing)

OOPS!,

But still a shove here is the same as a call, just more dramatic!

Some people don't seem to realize that the button folded and the BB was already all-in from the blind, so there is not point in talking about raising from the SB.

In the actual game, after this walk, the BB got this walk, he went on to win the game.

I am a little surprised that nobody defended the SB for not wanting to chip up the BB, or brought up the possibility that the SB maybe folded because she feared going heads-up with the person on the button, and was hoping to get heads-up with the guy on the BB.

I'm not saying either of these is a good reason, because I think the SB should have called with any two cards. I'm just a little surprised that nobody brought up those two possible reasons for the SB to fold.

Hand 0: 67.697% { random }
Hand 1: 32.303% { 32o } (the worst possible hand you could have)

So if you're dealt 32o in the SB, you have a 32.3% (2:1) draw at the pot. You are being offered 3:1 by the pot. This is an edge, and not a small one that you pass up in a tournament.

When you're playing poker, often there's many different ways to play a hand. However, with this hand, there's not. You put your chips in.

Emrald Onyxx said:

If you are not willing to raise, don't bet it.

If you simply allow the BB to see the flop for free, you increase the amount that he can walk away with if you miss the flop and somehow feel compelled to fold (now that would the weakest move of all time.). Not to mention you help keep him in the game. (I am assuming this is tourney, because you said, "Three players left.")

The implied odds are less than 3 to 1 ........

You are actually looking at 6000 in the pot with 2000 from your SB which is the 3 to 1 you mentioned. But the BB already has 1/2 his stack in and knows he is giving up another 1/2 of his remaining stack on the next hand. He's either all in or fold from this point, and you know this even before you bet.

You most likely will not be playing his cards, you will be playing his luck. But if he plays, the Implied odds give you a pay out of (6000 + 4000) / 4000 to 1 = 2.5 to 1. That means you will need at least the upper part of the top 28.6% of the overall hands after the flop to take the pot. That should suggest that your range is tighter than the 33% from your previous 3 to 1 odds you gave. Even though that it's not that much of a difference, it is just enough to consider because you either double him up or send him home.

If you don't have a good enough hand to represent that kind of leverage preflop, then fold, and wait for the next round to simply dictate his demise. But if you do play it, play it with a raise preflop to force the choice on him now, while he has less information.

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I agreee this is a very good assessment and best reply.... If you are not willing to raise then better fold...

SB should have raised with any two cards.

Unless the SB had anything worse than 9 3 offsuit, he should have called. There is now way you can let the BB get off that easy.