learning odds and outs

hey, im still new to poker, and have had about 2 weeks expierence of solid playing on stars....ive only deposited once so am quite happy im not a complete donkey lol......anyway i familiarised myself with the basic stuff, i.e, position, sb,bb, button, rank for cards, nuts etc......now its time to learn outs and odds...

i tried to do it today on stars in a 2nl game and i just cannot do it.....if i could look at the flop for about 3 minutes i would eventually work it out (with the help of my trusted notepad with all the outs noted) lol......so what do i do....theres not much point in going to play money games,because that is just like playing bingo ALL IN every hand...so learning pot odds on that is just not going to happen......do i get a deck of playing cards and deal different scenarios and practice speed at working it out, or do i just take more time playing 2nl with the risk of alieniating the whole table by taking ages all the time.....cheers

At first you can just learn the number of outs to make common hands. Flush draw you have 9 outs, open-ended straight draw you have 8 outs etc. Then you can use the '2 and 4 rule' to work out the chance of making your hand on subsequent streets:

Take the number of outs and multiply by 2 to give the % chance of making your hand on the turn, or multiply by 4 to give the % chance of making your hand by the river. So for a flush draw you have roughly 18% chance of hitting on the turn and 36% chance of hitting by the river.

The 2 and 4 rule becomes less accurate as the number of outs increases beyond 9, but as a guide for beginners it's fine.

...and you wont need more than a basic understanding of outs and odds to beat 2nl, or even some higher levels, I mean, it's not like we are all sitting there with our calculators working out precise percentages every hand.

Try playing strong draws aggressively sometimes rather than just passively calling down every time.

my problem exactly

micromachine said:

...and you wont need more than a basic understanding of outs and odds to beat 2nl, or even the higher levels, I mean, it's not like we are all sitting there with our calculators working out precise percentages every hand.

Try playing strong draws aggressively sometimes rather than just passively calling down every time.

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my problem exactly im one after the button i call everyone folds but the small blind he pushes i call i have ace jack of heart he has two four of spades so dumb he hits a pair of twos and im out of my tournament.guess i shoulda raised.

thanks micormachine i appreciate your help, yeah ive seen abit of the 2 and 4 rule explained on youtube...its perfect for me because i am terrible at maths haha...i think even i can do that ya know....ive got the flush draw and oesd outs memorised...apparently you only really have to remember the first 9 outs 1 to 9 as that is the most common used...once you get past that you have good odds anyway, so thats cool....

heres a question for you mate, now this is a problem that ive had since i have started thinking more about odds and outs, and that is, how much do i raise at any given point in a hand?....do i have to raise a specific amount to get correct odds on a different street?....or do i raise what i want and give the other guys bad odds to call.....now that part of the game fraggles my mind....i never know how much to raise in relation to the pot odds....

deeshark420 said:

my problem exactly im one after the button i call everyone folds but the small blind he pushes i call i have ace jack of heart he has two four of spades so dumb he hits a pair of twos and im out of my tournament.guess i shoulda raised.

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lol if you raised, he would still call and would donk out anyway...theres nothing you can really do except fold or take the chance

deeshark420 said:

my problem exactly im one after the button i call everyone folds but the small blind he pushes i call i have ace jack of heart he has two four of spades so dumb he hits a pair of twos and im out of my tournament.guess i shoulda raised.

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Man, that sentence is hard to read !

I was referring to playing strong draws aggressively post-flop in cash games...preflop tournament play is entirely different.

alyoung said:

heres a question for you mate, now this is a problem that ive had since i have started thinking more about odds and outs, and that is, how much do i raise at any given point in a hand?....do i have to raise a specific amount to get correct odds on a different street?....or do i raise what i want and give the other guys bad odds to call.....now that part of the game fraggles my mind....i never know how much to raise in relation to the pot odds....

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It's quite hard to answer that lol.

If I'm semi-bluffing with a draw, I'll usually just do my standard size flop and turn bets, somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 pot on both streets, and hope they fold or I hit my hand. You can tweak the amount bet based on who you're up against.

If you have a hand, lets say TPTK or overpair, and you think they are drawing you can bet bigger, like pot sized, meaning that they are making a mistake if they call.

Thanks man, very helpful answer

deeshark420 said:

my problem exactly im one after the button i call everyone folds but the small blind he pushes

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um, 1 after the button and SB are the same seat.

Arjonius said:

um, 1 after the button and SB are the same seat.

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Maybe it's that new Phil Helmuth App - solitaire holdem

There is a program called Ace Poker Drills made by the same people that make Leakbuster. I've found it pretty helpful for learning odds/outs, equity, etc.

Thanks goathair I've downloaded the math section, did you purchase the other programmes?

Yeah, i have the whole package , as well as Leakbuster. i really like their Equity Calculator. Has some cool features that aren't available in some of the others i have seen like Poker Stove.

alyoung said:

heres a question for you mate, now this is a problem that ive had since i have started thinking more about odds and outs, and that is, how much do i raise at any given point in a hand?....do i have to raise a specific amount to get correct odds on a different street?....or do i raise what i want and give the other guys bad odds to call.....now that part of the game fraggles my mind....i never know how much to raise in relation to the pot odds....

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Honestly I think your best bet would be to pick up Phil Gordon's Little Green Book (get it from the library, if they don't have it on their shelves ask them to get it for you via inter-library book loan). Or, you could just purchase it (I'm sure it'd be cheap these days on Amazon)
It's an easy, enjoyable read. The stuff you're asking about is covered in it & done so in an easily understandable way (even with some charts you can try to committ to memory).

Poker Orifice said:

Honestly I think your best bet would be to pick up Phil Gordon's Little Green Book (get it from the library, if they don't have it on their shelves ask them to get it for you via inter-library book loan). Or, you could just purchase it (I'm sure it'd be cheap these days on Amazon)
It's an easy, enjoyable read. The stuff you're asking about is covered in it & done so in an easily understandable way (even with some charts you can try to committ to memory).

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Yeah I downloaded the book today off amazon, I've read about 50 pages so far, and you're right it is an enjoyable read, very easy to follow compared to some of the other stuff I've tried reading...I will stick with this book deffo, thanks

alyoung said:

Yeah I downloaded the book today off amazon, I've read about 50 pages so far, and you're right it is an enjoyable read, very easy to follow compared to some of the other stuff I've tried reading...I will stick with this book deffo, thanks

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No probs. Glad you're enjoying it.
If you're looking for another once finished this one, pm me & I'll try to help you out with some suggestions.
gl on the tables!

Poker Orifice said:

No probs. Glad you're enjoying it.
If you're looking for another once finished this one, pm me & I'll try to help you out with some suggestions.
gl on the tables!

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cool, thanks, i will give you a bell when im ready for a new one....gl to you too mate

alyoung said:

cool, thanks, i will give you a bell when im ready for a new one....gl to you too mate

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One thing to remember about most if not all helpful books is that finishing reading them doesn't necessarily mean you've absorbed as much as possible. I've read some books as many as four or five times because I get something out of them each time that I didn't before.

absolutely arjouius, ive downloaded a few different books and once i read them i will buy them in book form and continue to delve through them throughout my poker journey.....like you say theres always something new to learn each time you read a book