Are fish good or bad?

C

cuffslurp

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I'm confused as to why having lots of fish at the table is a good thing. Granted, they make a lot of mistakes, but they tend to be loose-agressive maniacs - next to impossible to read. :(

An ideal table would probably consist of only a few fish, to spice the pot, and a healthy selection of decent players to actually play the game with. :p

Any thoughts on this? :confused:
 
kidkvno1

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you win more from fish. fishing for a hand is not good.
I like fish, i tend to get them in a big pot:)
 
S93

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No the best table would only have fish.
Good players dont make there money of other good players,they make it off bad players(fish).
So u want to be seated with as many bad players as possible.
And fish are a lot easier to read then good play since they never balance there range or mix it up(excepted when they go on tilt and start spewing more then normal)
 
BelgoSuisse

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IF you adapt your play accordingly, then the more fish the better.

But you have to be aware of the schooling effect, where a fish calls with incorrect odds, but then others call as well and improve his pot odds to a point where his call wasn't so bad after all. If you give them good implied odds later in the hand by overvaluing overpairs or top pair hands in multiway pots, then you make their plays correct and you become the fish.
 
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Fish are obviously a good thing , I guess your talking about micro stakes fish, if you are dont bluff unless you know they have nothing and wont call. I have been trying to make a switch to cash games and thereforehave been playing micro stakes recently and one of them called with pair of Kings with five kicker to about 3/4 pot bet on the river on dangerous board this just prove the point that they will call down with anything. So all you have to is sit tight and when you get a hand make them pay big time for calling you down with junk.

If you think that hold'em fish are hard to read, you should see the omaha fish they dont even know what their hand is so even if you do get a read it may be what the fish thinks he has not actually does have.
 
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cuffslurp

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But you have to be aware of the schooling effect, where a fish calls with incorrect odds, but then others call as well and improve his pot odds to a point where his call wasn't so bad after all. If you give them good implied odds later in the hand by overvaluing overpairs or top pair hands in multiway pots, then you make their plays correct and you become the fish.

Schooling effect, eh? Interesting ... :hmmmm2:

Any more fish traps to avoid?
 
KardKlub

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You may loose to a fish in the short term... but in the long run you will take all there money. So get it before someone else does lol
 
Stu_Ungar

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I was going to mention the schooling effect...

When playing a large number of fish, collectively they form a formidable opponent, because they see far too many flops, and play draws with little regard for odds and long term win rates, its quite easy to be outdrawn. Ok each fish is still a fish and will loose in the long run, but collectively they can be difficult to play agains.

I would say that the ideal situation is to have 3 or 4 fish at the table and 3 or 4 decent players.. that way the decent players will slow the fish downa bit and make them easier to play against
 
widowmaker89

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just give me some fish to my right and some 5/1/1 on my left and I will be happy with it.
 
frisellan

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IF you adapt your play accordingly, then the more fish the better.

But you have to be aware of the schooling effect, where a fish calls with incorrect odds, but then others call as well and improve his pot odds to a point where his call wasn't so bad after all. If you give them good implied odds later in the hand by overvaluing overpairs or top pair hands in multiway pots, then you make their plays correct and you become the fish.

Best phraseology of the day award!
 
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cuffslurp

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When playing a large number of fish, collectively they form a formidable opponent, because they see far too many flops, and play draws with little regard for odds and long term win rates, its quite easy to be outdrawn. Ok each fish is still a fish and will loose in the long run, but collectively they can be difficult to play agains.

This is very fascinating, and none of the recommended introductory poker books seem to mention it. A serious deficiency, IMHO.

Of course, it is still not clear how to handle a school of fish. :(
 
Stu_Ungar

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How to handle a school of fish?

well here are a few pointers.

Firstly forget about fold equity.. no matter how scary a flop looks.. fish do not fold, hence they often (collectively) out draw you.

Second forget about bluffing. If a fish looks down and sees second pair... its going to be hard to get him to fold. Again this ties in with reduced fold equity.

Third, do not overvalue top pair, top kicker. You are likely to get outdrawn.

If the pot is small.. then play but once it gets bigger forget about any hand lower than a set.

Play tight out of position and very loose when in position preflop. This is because when you are in position you are very unlikely to be raised by the blinds. Its worth seeing the flop with very speculative hands but be very prepared to fold if the flop dosent hit you.

Do not try and do anything fancy with fish. they will not understand what you are trying to do and consequently fancy plays will not show a long run profit.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Play heads up.

Yeah but isnt that the problem with a table of fish? Its difficult to get into a heads up position because of how loose the table is preflop?
 
c9h13no3

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Yeah but isnt that the problem with a table of fish? Its difficult to get into a heads up position because of how loose the table is preflop?
Well I sarcastically meant to switch to a heads up table :p. But there's 2 ways to combat schooling:

1) Raise & bet more. If they're loose enough to call pot-sized bets with overcards or a gutshot, crank it up and jam your whole stack in if that's what it takes. You'll get less calls, and the calls you do get will be bigger mistakes. I can routinely sit down at a play money table and multiply my stack by 10 quite quickly playing top pair hands against these idiots.

2) Play more drawing hands, and draw with good draws right along with them.
 
Stu_Ungar

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You are joking, right?
You meant to say, you'd rather have a table full of fish and just nit it up so you can play your big hands for this big pots they're creating.

No I honestly find it better to have a few decent player in the mix.. fish are profitable, but they are more profitable when they are cooled down a little by decent players.
 
SavagePenguin

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No I honestly find it better to have a few decent player in the mix.. fish are profitable, but they are more profitable when they are cooled down a little by decent players.

How can that be? When fish go against fish they throw a lot of money around. If you have an advantage you want to play for these big pots. Yes, you will have more severe swings, but overall you will make more by tightening up and letting them destroy themselves on your big hands.



That is, instead of playing for a $3 pot when I'm 60% to win PF, I'd rather play for an $8 pot when I'm only 30% (because of the larger field) to win PF.

And with implied odds... Fish have trouble letting go of big pots. So if you can catch one with TPTK you can often stack them.


The swings might suck, but you make more money. Heck, the swings probably *help* you, because people sucking out against each other puts them on tilt, which works in your favor.


As for having good people at the table... when money shifts, I want it to go from a fish to me. Or from Fish A to Fish B. I don't want it going to someone smart enough to hold on to it, or use it against me. I also don't want someone to exploit me exploiting the fish (IE, chasing me off my isolation bets and such).
 
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cuffslurp

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Firstly forget about fold equity.. no matter how scary a flop looks.. fish do not fold, hence they often (collectively) out draw you.

But fold equity works in two ways, i.e.

(1) You raise for an amount that would make it wrong for your opponent to call.

(2) You only call bets if the pot odds exceed your drawing hand odds.

When fish-handling, do you you neglect both (1) and (2)?

Do not try and do anything fancy with fish. they will not understand what you are trying to do and consequently fancy plays will not show a long run profit.

By fancy play, do you mean things like check-raising, and so on?
 
c9h13no3

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But fold equity works in two ways, i.e.

(1) You raise for an amount that would make it wrong for your opponent to call.

(2) You only call bets if the pot odds exceed your drawing hand odds.
You don't know what fold equity is. Its the value you get from making players fold better hands.
 
Stu_Ungar

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But fold equity works in two ways, i.e. Yeah as others have said.. this isnt really fold eqity but still ...

(1) You raise for an amount that would make it wrong for your opponent to call. Yes .. against a single fish makes a mistake here because he takes incorrect odds, but a table of fish will call meaning that although the current pot odds are incorrect to call, the implied odds are sufficient to call thus the single fish isnt making a mistake by calling.
(2) You only call bets if the pot odds exceed your drawing hand odds.

When fish-handling, do you you neglect both (1) and (2)? I would say you put far less emphasis on 1. You still play correctly yourself, although you can also call with infufficient pot odds in early position, if you feel that there will be enough callers to give you correct implied odds.

As raising dosnt cause the fish to make such a mistake (as explained above) its better to play more passively without the nuts. i.e. play your big drawing hands as cheaply as possible unless you hit (no fold equity to exploit) Do not overvalue top pair... you are less likely to get drawing hands to fold to a raise, so let it play out natural.



By fancy play, do you mean things like check-raising, and so on? Yes, it happens all too often that you check raise, with the intention of thinning the field a bit, but because they have put money in that round they feel obliged to call.. great if you have the absolute nuts.. but if you have a handthat can be outdrawn it would be nice to get rid of a few of them.


This only applies to a table of fish.. as said before each individual fish plays incorrectly but their tendency to overcall COLLECTIVELY makes them harder to play against. You need the absolute nuts to be confident of getting cash into the pot. Saying that.. when that happens.. you should get a nice payout.
 
micalupagoo

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fishy fishy fishy fish, where art thou oh fishy fish

send em my way-with some tartar

fish, for as lucky as they can be, dont understand odds, and SHOULD lose way more often than winning
 
Laferriere

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if not for fish the game would be so dry and boring..... no blow ups only correct calls commmon we need fish they are our bank roll builders..... they are New york Cities founding imigrants they are our taxi drivers! Take one for a ride today!
 
wachinpntdry

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fish = easy, soft, no clue

donk = maniac, some clue but either no patience or just plays for bingo thrills, stupid but dangerous


therefore,

fish .....good, tourny or cash

donks......good and bad
bad for tourney as they can ruin you, but can also be good cause you can take all their chips with the right hand.....

and always good for cash games cause they always give up the chips in the end
 
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