K10 off

KING 10 off on the button, 10 person 7 limpers, what to do??? raise or call or fold

I would definately fold this hand preflop. K 10 is a trouble hand because when you hit top pair you will often find yourself in kicker trouble. Besides if you are at a very loose table you should play VERY tight. Don't play hands like QJ, A10 or hands like that. Wait for the premium hands and punish your opponents when you get them.

what Osmann said.

KT is a horrible starting hand 10-handed
even late position

struth, this game gets finer and finer as you progress, K10 when i started was an all in hand, now i hate it, and to confirm it you guys say fold even from button when 78 suits is a raiser, lol, complex game hey, i wonder tho, if you wait for premo, when you get it, it is hard to extract good cash, and some times you raise it and the board forgets that its the good cards that should win you just loose your chips.

yeah but thats poker

jasondavies said:

struth, this game gets finer and finer as you progress, K10 when i started was an all in hand, now i hate it, and to confirm it you guys say fold even from button when 78 suits is a raiser, lol, complex game hey, i wonder tho, if you wait for premo, when you get it, it is hard to extract good cash, and some times you raise it and the board forgets that its the good cards that should win you just loose your chips.

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There are actually some very good reasons to why 78 suited is a much better hand than K10. As I mentioned earlier K10 is going to get you into kicker trouble alot, wich means you loose big pots and win small ones. This is because if there is a king on the board and you bet, it is likely you have a king cause there are several playable hands wich includes the king. If your opponent also holds a king you are loosing a big pot. Where as when the 78 suited hits either it's flush, straight, two pair or trips, it is very well discuised, cause you don't play many hands that includes cards like 7 and 8. Therefor it is likely to win you some very big pots, and unlikely to loose the big ones.

When that is said it should also be mentioned that many people overrate the suited connectors, or their own abbilities to play poker. Cause they are hard to play, and most novice poker players (like myself) are actually better of just folding them preflop. If you can't outplay your opponents on the flop this is not a hand you want to get involved with.

jasondavies i suggest you read up on some preflop play and strategy to get you on the right track
don't start playing the 67s or 78s or whatever in No limit until your reading abilities are really up there
they can be a quick bankroll buster if used improperly
in limit just try and limp in late position with them if you can - try to see the flop as cheaply as possible with em
read some of the articles in cardschat's articles section. They should help alot

I'll email you a starting hands chart if you like which will give you a great template of hands relating to position
i use this regularly to keep me on track in tournaments when i get a bit too loose or tight.
if you want PM me with your email address and i could send it to you

ChuckTs said:

I'll email you a starting hands chart if you like which will give you a great template of hands relating to position
i use this regularly to keep me on track in tournaments when i get a bit too loose or tight.
if you want PM me with your email address and i could send it to you

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Why not start a thread and post it? (If you haven't already) I'll look it over and see about making it a sticky.

'thing is its a scanned pic from MichelleW (remember her?) from a copyrighted book so i don't think i can post it
though i could make a chart (ie copy that one )

SexyAceJoker made a very nice guide to starting hands in the different stages of MTT play, wich can be found here:

https://www.cardschat.com/showthread.php?t=65467&highlight=tournament+starting+hands

It should cover most of the questions of wich hands to play from wich position and how, preflop.

jasondavies said:

KING 10 off on the button, 10 person 7 limpers, what to do??? raise or call or fold

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7 limpers? you have the odds to call just about any two cards.
K-10 is a call here.

Osmann said:

SexyAceJoker made a very nice guide to starting hands in the different stages of MTT play, wich can be found here:

https://www.cardschat.com/showthread.php?t=65467&highlight=tournament+starting+hands

It should cover most of the questions of wich hands to play from wich position and how, preflop.

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very intricate guide and well done,
but i can't agree with some of the stuff
making a set amount of XBBs to raise with specific hands is only a way to make yourself predictable as a player
soon after sitting at a table and seeing some of the hands you play, a decent player will notice that you limp with weaker hands or drawing hands in late position, and raise 4-5X the BB with a top 10 hand from any position
i suppose the guide would be perfect for someone who has no idea what to do and needs to follow something step by step

but what im talking about is a simple starting hands guide
a starting hands guide should be (IMO) just a guide to what hands you should be playing preflop
poker is too conditional to have a set way of doing something everytime
if you've got an extremely tight table, you might want to widen your range of hands, and conversely tighten up if the table is playing really loose
lots of factors to consider;

Is this limit or no-limit? MTT, SnG or cash game?

I'd probably limp with KTo in a spot like this at a limit cash table.

It's certainly not a raising hand, and usually it is very foldable, but as Fish says, once you have 7 in pot already, you've got enough odds to see a flop. If you dont hit it smack on you can throw away then.

I'd disagree with limping along with the rest - it's probably safer to fold. Yes, you get pot odds to call, but the danger is that with that many players you're more likely to hit the 2nd best hand and lose a big stack of chips.
You can limp and see the flop, but you have to have discretion if you do - you'd have to be willing to fold if the flop pairs your 10 or K and anyone else bets, and would only be comfortable playing if you hit then nut straight draw, 2 pair, full house or trips. N.B. KT suited would be a viable hand to limp with here because the chance of hitting a good draw is about doubled.

K10 late position, on the button, last to act after the flop, with good pot odds? This is an easy call.

You dont mention the level of the blinds or stage of the tourney but from all the limpers I would assume you are at level 1 or very early stages, in which case you wanna be seeing flops to build a stack

K10 is a playable hand, especially late and with a table full of limpers

It's probably safer to fold 99% of hands preflop - would you fold KK here, assuming that someone had AA? That's where you use your initiative, skill and experience post flop, so see how well the flop suits your hand, and how well it suits others. If you get a bad flop, throw it - a medium flop (i.e pair of kings or tens) use your judgment on how to proceed and a good flop (trips, straight etc) rake the cash in!

Edit - this is a reply to Starfall, not Colin!

I would play this as a limp on the button, yes. As a King with low kicker, PLUS a two gapper, it's dicey but what the heck if I'm bored I'll call it.

BUT, I would probably NOT tell a newbie to play it, because it's what happens AFTER the flop that gets them into trouble. (Flop top pair etc.)

Any of the good players here would call, and probably stay out of trouble post flop. A new player should fold, then WATCH and learn from the hand.

F Paulsson said:

Is this limit or no-limit? MTT, SnG or cash game?

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It doesn't matter.

With 7 limpers, and the blinds behind you with position?
I wouldn't even look at my cards. Call.

What happens if the blinds wake up with a big hand?
Well, they have to raise big to thin the field.
You then fold.
Otherwise, they are calling and you are 10 handed to a flop.
Essentially getting 10-1 on your call.
If you hit your hand hard, you are golden.
If you miss, it cost you only a blind.

Fish said:

It doesn't matter.

With 7 limpers, and the blinds behind you with position?
I wouldn't even look at my cards. Call.

What happens if the blinds wake up with a big hand?
Well, they have to raise big to thin the field.
You then fold.
Otherwise, they are calling and you are 10 handed to a flop.
Essentially getting 10-1 on your call.
If you hit your hand hard, you are golden.
If you miss, it cost you only a blind.

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how very true, i have NEVER thought of this in that way, i like your theory, and i will in fact employ it to my game, thanks

What sort of flop do you need to continue here Jason. K high isnt really good enough against a full table. 2 pair will co-ordinate the board, what sort of flop do you want to see ? (apart from the obvious nut boat)

Not addressed to me I know (though that's never stopped me before!).

Ace Q J and Q J 9 would be peaches obviously. Q J x would give open ended draw - definately take all the way in limit with the pot odds already. Ace and 2 others the same suit as your King for a nut flush draw. Pair of 10's, pair of kings - i'd prefer the 10's as you're likely to be outkicked with Kings. Trips, Full houses. An inside straight would be worth seeing another card if limit. Chances are you wont get any of these, but at 10/1 odds, with further implied odds (if you do hit straight, you'll get called by lots of people who cant resist ever growing pot odds), you only have to hit once in a blue moon to make it worthwhile.

Fish said:

It doesn't matter.

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In this very particular case, you may be right - it might not matter. But my point is on a bit of a grander scale: Please include what kind of game the question is in regards to, as the answers may be very dependent on that. I'm sure I could manufacture a scenario for when limping wouldn't be okay here either (and it would likely involve a satellite, so it's not a terribly common or good scenario), but my point does not involve this hand specifically, like I said.

So yeah - please include what kind of game your question is pertinent to.

That is all.

F Paulsson said:

(and it would likely involve a satellite, so it's not a terribly common or good scenario),

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Stop being a nit.

And just to play along with your satellite arguement:
How many satellites have you played where ALL 10 PLAYERS saw a flop?
You can thus determine that this is level 1 or level 2 of said satellite.

Thus it's a CALL.

But for those that want to fold in this position, go ahead.
Remember, success at poker is found not in one hand, but in playing many hands correctly. A fold is simply incorrect.

Fish said:

Stop being a nit.

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Felt that was called for?

And just to play along with your satellite arguement:
How many satellites have you played where ALL 10 PLAYERS saw a flop?
You can thus determine that this is level 1 or level 2 of said satellite.

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Let me restate what the point was, which I thought I had made so abundantly clear:

FPaulsson said:

In this very particular case, you may be right - it might not matter. But my point is on a bit of a grander scale: Please include what kind of game the question is in regards to, as the answers may be very dependent on that. I'm sure I could manufacture a scenario for when limping wouldn't be okay here either (and it would likely involve a satellite, so it's not a terribly common or good scenario), but my point does not involve this hand specifically, like I said.

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Seriously, did anyone else have trouble understanding what I meant? That asking for advice on a specific hand without giving the specifics of what kind of game it's about is generally bad?

Despite my actually saying that it's not a good scenario, that's it not "a terribly common" scenario, you harp on that? Jeez, man, calm down.

Thus it's a CALL.

But for those that want to fold in this position, go ahead.
Remember, success at poker is found not in one hand, but in playing many hands correctly. A fold is simply incorrect.

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And looking at my first post in this hand, I believe it looks like I agree with you.

Are you picking a fight, or are you casual with insults? I'm not happy about either.

Cheers,
Fredrik