Anonymous tables/Future of online poker?.

Logan2 · Nov 12, 2010

I think last week was when talk in other forum about Cake option to change your nickname 1 time every 7 days. Some people don´t like it, some do.

General idea of change of nick is that tracking sites will be useless, meaning players need to get back to skill and play from how you see the player in a specific game and not getting all info in a silver tray with out do anything like in tracking sites/Tracking software.

And it looks is not that far away from happening soon.

Just yesterday read in pokerscout that Party Poker make a upgrade this month and now aside of rabbit/show one or 2 cards (like merge) also implement the "anonimous tables".

"Anonymous tables offer players the chance to play without a moniker or avatar, which prevents any statistics or previous history from being available to an opponent. Online players who utilize poker software tools like PokerTracker and Holdem Manager won’t have access to details about opponents, which will level the playing field for non-software users.

The concept goes against traditional game play in that players won’t ever know who they’re competing against – something you’ll never find in a brick-and-mortar casino. However, in a time when many players have become multi-tabling robots with every statistic at their disposal, the anonymous tables are a refreshing change to today’s online game."

Then today open my email and get another news from 32RED (microgaming)

Dear ....

We have introduced a revolutionary new concept to our poker lobby - Anonymous Tables! Whether you're a fish or a shark, play selected tables with the advantage that other players don't know your level of skill.

Anonymous Tables are brand new to the 32red lobby and can be identified by the icon

next to the table name. They are found under the Cash Tables tab and offer complete anonymity by providing each player with a temporary alias (e.g. Player 3) as well as a random avatar. Ordinary features such as player profiles, locations, buddies and notes are unavailable at these tables and related hand information contained on your playcheck will display anonymous aliases.

What are the benefits of playing anonymously?
Anonymous tables provide you with a fresh new playing field, where players are unable to track your game-play through fancy software or keep notes on how you play. It is exactly as poker was meant to be: cards, chips, money, skill and instinct – nothing more.

thoughts?

Good or Bad?

You will like to play in those tables or will avoid them.

pat3392 · Nov 12, 2010

wow ok. This part was amusing:

cards, chips, money, skill and instinct

I've always thought poker was playing the player? This will give fish an advantage; not only is there 1 less concept that can learn, how would multi-tabling work? A fish can pop into a table, get there reads via observation and leave; a multi-tabler won't have this luxury. Even if they did get there reads, a fish can simply leave the game.

I'd imagine this would attract a lot of fish though, so stuff like SnG may be profitable, since reads don't seem as important(This is coming from the guy who is just starting to use his HUD/take notes properly)

wow

Krk · Nov 12, 2010

pat3392 said:
wow ok. This part was amusing: I've always thought poker was playing the player? This will give fish an advantage; not only is there 1 less concept that can learn, how would multi-tabling work? A fish can pop into a table, get there reads via observation and leave; a multi-tabler won't have this luxury. Even if they did get there reads, a fish can simply leave the game.

I'd imagine this would attract a lot of fish though, so stuff like SnG may be profitable, since reads don't seem as important(This is coming from the guy who is just starting to use his HUD/take notes properly)

wow

Good thing I think!

I disagree that this would give the fish an advantage, rather it may redefine who the fish really is. It no longer will be the people not using the database, but rather the people who are worse at actuall reads at the table. I agree with you the fact SnG may be the place to go then.
The actuall adaptation and attention would be more important which will make multitabling difficult. And as the OP mentions this may be what poker originally was about. I seriouslly do not take actuall multitabling small stakes based on statistics and HUD as real poker as I believe that being better at poker does not mean to play more tables automatically at lower limit but rather play at a higher limit.Hope that nobody takes this as personal offense as probably some multitablers will come across this post :-].

As sites are making much more rake when people are multitabling I really dont think that big sites will allow the anonymous or semi anonymous play to take over quickly. Have to check if it wouldnt be worth to start an account with party poker after all.

absoluthamm · Nov 12, 2010

I think these tables will be a short lived fad and will die out fairly soon. None of the regulars(who make the most money for the sites because they are playing more often) will play in these games, not only because tracking software won't work, but also because you won't have a way to take notes. I understand why some people disagree with tracking software(even though I do not), but note taking on your opponents is nothing that can be argued with, but that is taken completely out of the picture.

Krk I completely disagree with you(and the article) on that this is what poker originally was about. It is a game that isn't just about the cards, it's about the players you are facing, making observations and noting them or remembering them. If it is completely anonymous and you cannot have anything to connect an observation to a specific opponent, then you are only playing your cards and it is nothing but a game of luck.

dwolfg · Nov 12, 2010

absoluthamm's last sentence is exactly the reason I don't think I like this concept.

Logan2 · Nov 12, 2010

I kind of in the middle in this, agree to some point to Kirk, but also agree to hamm.

My first think when read this was "what a 10+ tabling player do then?", let´s face it, we don´t have so many reads when multitabling, maybe we have some notes there and software help us to give a rough idea, but we still use our skill to play (most of us anyway).

I think the no notes on players is bad, but the no tracking software at least for me not see it like a most for win, i still can win with out a HUD and there is where i don´t agree with hamm, even with out trackers good players are not only playing your cards, you also play position, hand ranges, preflop play, postflop play, other players positions, stacks, reads, wich is really important aside of trackers. Your cards are important but is not the only thing.

This days we have a talk in SNG topic about what if you play a game with out see your cards wich probably help a lot to take in consideration everything else also not only your cards. That no HUD could make the games harder?, yea, i think could be if you are playing 4+ tables, but still think will not be a "oh ok now the fish will win", skill players still will win, but will be harder.

This tables will mean no tracking sites too (sharksc, proshar, etc) meaning you will not have anymore a idea before play, example i don´t use tracking sites when im playing because is illegal, but it is legal to used when are not playing, meaning i usually take note on players that end in top3 or players that take me out to later see if they are winning players or not (For sngs), and try to use table selection this way for future games. In this tables you can´t use table selection in any way, can´t use a Hud, can´t use notes, so pretty much will be use you skill there and focus to get info on players as soon as can, wich will be harder, but still bad players will not have a edge on you, they don´t care about position or hand ranges, or stacks, or trouble spots, so you should still be ahead.

What bring my attention to this article is that is not only 1 site, Cake network have the NO HUds policy since time back (you can use tracking software but only get you own stats and other players appear like cake seat1, cake seat2, etc), and this is for all the site and all cake network, not only for some tables (doyles and rest of skins too), now Party Poker implement this for some tables and next day find it also for 32Red, so this are 3 sites using this now, wich make me wonder if all sites could implement this for future.

Good or bad?, i don´t know, have his good points and bad points, i know that some high stakes winning players not even use HUD, so for some will not make any change, but for example will be better to Phill Ivey appear like anonimous?, for bussines reason probably is not good for the site that pros be anonimous,the point to have it is for people see them and want to play with them, but surely some times they will want to be anonimous and enter in this tables.

Krk · Nov 12, 2010

absoluthamm said:
I think these tables will be a short lived fad and will die out fairly soon. None of the regulars(who make the most money for the sites because they are playing more often) will play in these games, not only because tracking software won't work, but also because you won't have a way to take notes. I understand why some people disagree with tracking software(even though I do not), but note taking on your opponents is nothing that can be argued with, but that is taken completely out of the picture.

Krk I completely disagree with you(and the article) on that this is what poker originally was about. It is a game that isn't just about the cards, it's about the players you are facing, making observations and noting them or remembering them. If it is completely anonymous and you cannot have anything to connect an observation to a specific opponent, then you are only playing your cards and it is nothing but a game of luck.

Well I dont think that it takes out the observations, its just that the observations would be limited to a single session then.
Nowadays I got the impression that thetracking software making the notes for you and giving you the reports makes the game mechanical in the areas where it has been the domain of skill in the past. That is what I mean by the original poker game. I am not saying if it is good or bad.
For me, who is a total amateur and not very experienced player it would be a good thing when all people at the start of the session would have the same line to start with at least sometimes and you did have to worry whether someone has a full db of your hands or not, that is all. So as an option and maybe a measure whether I would do better in such an environment or within the "normal" one, I like it.
I agree and mention it in my previous post as well, that this is a thing that will probably not became the core of online poker for various reasons.
I also agree that it takes the inter-sessional observations out of the game, which is a shame and which is why it will never be anonymous at least at the high stakes where there is not so many players and most are professionals and they probably all work with all the available databases anyway.

Just please take this opinion of mine as a very humble addition to the discussion as I am aware that I am neither very experienced nor very good player and am definitely very far from making any money out of poker that would have any real life meaning.

Krk · Nov 12, 2010

/Logan/ said:
I kind of in the middle in this, agree to some point to Kirk, but also agree to hamm.

My first think when read this was "what a 10+ tabling player do then?", let´s face it, we don´t have so many reads when multitabling, maybe we have some notes there and software help us to give a rough idea, but we still use our skill to play (most of us anyway).

I think the no notes on players is bad, but the no tracking software at least for me not see it like a most for win, i still can win with out a HUD and there is where i don´t agree with hamm, even with out trackers good players are not only playing your cards, you also play position, hand ranges, preflop play, postflop play, other players positions, stacks, reads, wich is really important aside of trackers. Your cards are important but is not the only thing.

This days we have a talk in SNG topic about what if you play a game with out see your cards wich probably help a lot to take in consideration everything else also not only your cards. That no HUD could make the games harder?, yea, i think could be if you are playing 4+ tables, but still think will not be a "oh ok now the fish will win", skill players still will win, but will be harder.

This tables will mean no tracking sites too (sharksc, proshar, etc) meaning you will not have anymore a idea before play, example i don´t use tracking sites when im playing because is illegal, but it is legal to used when are not playing, meaning i usually take note on players that end in top3 or players that take me out to later see if they are winning players or not (For sngs), and try to use table selection this way for future games. In this tables you can´t use table selection in any way, can´t use a Hud, can´t use notes, so pretty much will be use you skill there and focus to get info on players as soon as can, wich will be harder, but still bad players will not have a edge on you, they don´t care about position or hand ranges, or stacks, or trouble spots, so you should still be ahead.

What bring my attention to this article is that is not only 1 site, Cake network have the NO HUds policy since time back (you can use tracking software but only get you own stats and other players appear like cake seat1, cake seat2, etc), and this is for all the site and all cake network, not only for some tables (doyles and rest of skins too), now Party Poker implement this for some tables and next day find it also for 32Red, so this are 3 sites using this now, wich make me wonder if all sites could implement this for future.

Good or bad?, i don´t know, have his good points and bad points, i know that some high stakes winning players not even use HUD, so for some will not make any change, but for example will be better to Phill Ivey appear like anonimous?, for bussines reason probably is not good for the site that pros be anonimous,the point to have it is for people see them and want to play with them, but surely some times they will want to be anonimous and enter in this tables.

Agree.
It is a new info about the cake no tracker policy but it seems as a nice option to me as well. I also heard that cake is struggling with traffic for some period of time and wonder if this policy has something to do with it.

rugby0 · Nov 12, 2010

I do not thnik it matters. Those of us that have reasonable memories will use them. Playing at a new table with new people should improve your skills.

Extreme Fishing · Nov 12, 2010

Think its pointless imo. The only people who would know who you are are the people with huds. People with huds wont play here so whats the point?

WiZZiM · Nov 12, 2010

Not sure if i like the anonymous tables. In a live game, you can recognize the fish by remembering names/faces. It's the same as online. If they wanted to do something like that, and i'm not totally against the idea if it's to get rid of HUD's. (i'm a hypocrite because i use one, but if no one else used a HUD, nor would I)

I think they would have to do something like have a constant changing number at the end of someone's ID. Like if my name was WIzziM have 3 numbers at the end that change everytime i log in. This way it still stops HUDs, but you can still remember names and such. If on these sites you can still mark players, and no matter how many times they change names the notes remain, then i'm not against it at all, and you won't have to do something like above. If changing names gets rid of all notes on that particular player, then i'm totally against it. I'd be against it for the reason that notes should remain constant no matter what the player changes names too, and if we're marking them for table selection it will mean lots of games will be screwed up. Like table selecting in a SNG would become difficult if regs arn't marked.

This would probably give the better players a much bigger edge over the fish, and the "ok" regs. And the fish would gain a little on the "ok" regs.

belerophon · Nov 14, 2010

I also use a hud and I love tracking software however I completely see the potential appeal here for some people.

I've always believed online poker was about capitalizing on the mistakes that fish make so regardless of info it should be more than profitable for a decent player to perform well here. Certainly in the micros there's no giant "meta-game" involved. There's just waiting to get paid on your good hands by the fish. Anonymous or not.

Moreover, if this provides fish with a false sense of security, all the better imdo.

witchywitchy · Nov 14, 2010

The name change on Cake is not new. I have made notes on players and they are carried over to their new name

If Cake ever forces their new Version 2 on me I do hope the notes continue to follow the player no matter what name they are going under

Grossberger · Nov 14, 2010

absoluthamm said:
I think these tables will be a short lived fad and will die out fairly soon. None of the regulars(who make the most money for the sites because they are playing more often) will play in these games, not only because tracking software won't work, but also because you won't have a way to take notes. I understand why some people disagree with tracking software(even though I do not), but note taking on your opponents is nothing that can be argued with, but that is taken completely out of the picture.

Krk I completely disagree with you(and the article) on that this is what poker originally was about. It is a game that isn't just about the cards, it's about the players you are facing, making observations and noting them or remembering them. If it is completely anonymous and you cannot have anything to connect an observation to a specific opponent, then you are only playing your cards and it is nothing but a game of luck.

I agree with you here however if you played only live poker and traveled around you would not be able to remember that many players or the way a player plays in certain positions or situations. I don't use a HUD and don't agree that they should be allowed, with that said if the HUD erased the data after each day and had to start anew each day then thats more realistic to live play then keeping stats on players for ever on a player.

Poker Orifice · Nov 14, 2010

I don't know about you guys but for me poker is about exploiting other player's weaknesses. I don't use a HUD ... 'BUT' I do take ALOT of notes.

Why would anyone want to take this out of the game (metagame stuff) is beyond me. In my opinion it does the exact opposite to what you're suggesting Logan ("meaning players need to get back to skill") < I actually find this to be funny.
There are many, many, many MTT regs. (just talking about what I know a little bit about...... will not comment on cash game play here)... what do you think they're doing on the tables? just playing their cards?.. "skillfully" playing their cards??? It's all about playing the player & if you're playing a bunch of anonymous players all the time, it would just take soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much out of the game. It'd be a joke imo. Perhaps you don't realize it but when you look/observe a table in say higher buyin MTTs, ALOT of those players have a TON of prior play with one another (many have played 5,000 > 10,000 mtts.. just on one site... nevermind all the others). What would happen to the metagame?.. How would S F'n D be 5-bet bluffing Moorman, if he doesn't even freak'n know it's Moorman? Get what I'm saying? In other words.. IT WOULD SUCK BIG TIME!! Might as well play poker on Pogo if that's the case.
Maybe some new pokersite should open up & have it... call it beginner poker donks.... learn to play the basics!! yay!! Maybe Cake will get onto it instead of making many drastic improvements needed to their software.

I guess I don't need to sum this response up.... errr... do you think the nosebleed cashgame players would be into this? Why not just open it right up.. and say that multi-accounting is now ok too. That way when you're deep in a higher buyin MTT you've satellited into, you could be playing vs Sorel Mizzi.. and not evne know it.... but now it'd be kinda okay cuz who the fk knows who it is anyways? (it's not like the name would be the same). So why not just have a ton of mtt regs. fire up say 30-40 accounts each?
This is just such a bad idea on soooo many levels it makes me wanna puke.
How about a new rule for all live poker.. everyone must wear a costume & it must completely conceal your identity... better yet, the casino supplies it (everyone wears the same one)... errr. or every one sits in a cubicle at the table & your cards are passed to you in a slot at the bottom of it. AND have everyone use a thing to disguise their voices. Sound good?

Krk · Nov 14, 2010

witchywitchy said:
The name change on Cake is not new. I have made notes on players and they are carried over to their new name

If Cake ever forces their new Version 2 on me I do hope the notes continue to follow the player no matter what name they are going under

Wow,that seems to me like a solution to the very reasonable arguments of Orifice and I like it. A way to carry on notes on site and get rid of people with database fed HUDs(not that I have anything personal against them

).

spunka · Nov 14, 2010

The Pokersites don't like tracking software as it scares the casually players away, they want all the players to win a bit and stay at they site, they are not especially interested in winning players, they are interested in as many players as possible as players generate rake, the more rake the happier are the sites. If this means the players who wins a lot will win a bit less it is good as the "fishes" then will win more often and keep playing at the site.

I don't think they will make Tournaments anonimous only the ring games, but I think they will keep trying to keep the tracking software off of their sites.

Krk · Nov 14, 2010

spunka said:
The Pokersites don't like tracking software as it scares the casually players away, they want all the players to win a bit and stay at they site, they are not especially interested in winning players, they are interested in as many players as possible as players generate rake, the more rake the happier are the sites. If this means the players who wins a lot will win a bit less it is good as the "fishes" then will win more often and keep playing at the site.

I don't think they will make Tournaments anonimous only the ring games, but I think they will keep trying to keep the tracking software off of their sites.

The other option they would have would be to make the tracking an integral part of the room software and so make it available to everyone.
This might also favor the casual players because the stats of the seasoned regs could in my opinion tell even more about their game than the stats of a fish who may play a lot but not have a consistant strategy.

679 · Nov 14, 2010

These tables haven't seemed too popular. I don't think Ladbrokes has the player pool to justify them.

Many argue its taking a lot of the skill out of poker and is simply an excercise to ensure that fish lose their money slower, more money is turned over and consequently more rake is paid.

I noticed that Ladbrokes stated that these tables were patent pending. Is it just me or is there no way this is patentable?

absoluthamm · Nov 15, 2010

Krk and Logan, I've reread my post and I don't see it, but it seems as though I mis-spoke. My argument really didn't have much to do with the fact that you couldn't use tracking software, but more than you couldn't take notes. Like PO, I take a lot of notes, along with using my tracking software, because even though I use the statistical data in my tracking software, it does not give me some of the bet-sizing and timing info that I find crucial.

Grossberger said:
I agree with you here however if you played only live poker and traveled around you would not be able to remember that many players or the way a player plays in certain positions or situations. I don't use a HUD and don't agree that they should be allowed, with that said if the HUD erased the data after each day and had to start anew each day then thats more realistic to live play then keeping stats on players for ever on a player.

The thing is, many people that play live poker do know many of the people they are playing with. They don't usually go to a different casino every night of the month, they are usually a regular at one casino(there are obviously exceptions). When I go to my usual B&M, I either know or recognize many of the players there and am able to sit down and immediate start where I left off the last time I was there, and then I start making my observations on the new people at the tables. But I go in already having a head start on someone who has never played with those people before. Online, when I notice those players that I have notes on, I try to gravitate towards there tables for the exact same reasons.

Logan2 · Nov 15, 2010

absoluthamm said:
Krk and Logan, I've reread my post and I don't see it, but it seems as though I mis-spoke. My argument really didn't have much to do with the fact that you couldn't use tracking software, but more than you couldn't take notes. Like PO, I take a lot of notes, along with using my tracking software, because even though I use the statistical data in my tracking software, it does not give me some of the bet-sizing and timing info that I find crucial.

And i agree with you, in the sense of notes, but i was talking in the sense of Huds and tracking sites, not about notes.

In my opinion it does the exact opposite to what you're suggesting Logan ("meaning players need to get back to skill") < I actually find this to be funny.

meaning players need to get back to skill and play from how you see the player in a specific game and not getting all info in a silver tray with out do anything like in tracking sites/Tracking software.

Maybe if you read all PO, you understand my point. I say specifically tracking sites/tracking software i never talk about notes, even if you change your nick in Cake, notes still stay add to same player (even with another nick), and a change of nick have nothing to do with multiaccounting and all your comment. Like you mention, you don´t use a Hud, maybe is that why you don´t understand what im saying.

My comment of return to skill is purely about players that totally base all his "skill" in data mining, not just like a extra help for make a better desicions or for improve his game but for just play based entirely in a HUD. You are talking about another thing wich is notes, different topic PO. My only point is that if a player have poker skills then no matter if you take him the HUD and make him play with out one, he still could be a winning player, but some players rely so much in Huds that if you take that out will have totally different results. And that is different from what are you talking.

I agree with this comment of Wizz

If they wanted to do something like that, and i'm not totally against the idea if it's to get rid of HUD's. (i'm a hypocrite because i use one, but if no one else used a HUD, nor would I) If on these sites you can still mark players, and no matter how many times they change names the notes remain, then i'm not against it at all, and you won't have to do something like above. If changing names gets rid of all notes on that particular player, then i'm totally against it

suit2please · Nov 21, 2010

Krk said:
Nowadays I got the impression that thetracking software making the notes for you and giving you the reports makes the game mechanical in the areas where it has been the domain of skill in the past.

It seems to me that pretty much everyone who is against HUDs has no idea what they do. A HUD can not turn a bad player into a good one. A HUD may make a decent player a little bit better, but it is no magical tool where all of a sudden you have all this information that makes the game so simple a monkey could do it. It doesn't take notes, won't tell you what cards their playing, all it gives you is statistics based on hands you've played, good notes can be way more helpful.

Krk · Nov 21, 2010

suit2please said:
It seems to me that pretty much everyone who is against HUDs has no idea what they do. A HUD can not turn a bad player into a good one. A HUD may make a decent player a little bit better, but it is no magical tool where all of a sudden you have all this information that makes the game so simple a monkey could do it. It doesn't take notes, won't tell you what cards their playing, all it gives you is statistics based on hands you've played, good notes can be way more helpful.

No need to feel offended, im using the HUD sometimes myself. In the remark you cited, I am just stating the obvious fact that by using the HUD, you exert slightly different set of skills, as you now dont need to use your memory to have the stats. That is all. As mentioned before here, some hard core multitablers(and maybe just a minority of them) do play very automatically using the HUD data which makes their play robotic.
However my original liking of the anonymous tables came rather from the fact that it would prevent people from having all my previous stats ready available at the table automatically, so that 'I dont know that they know'. I am much less anxious about that now though after some further real play experience.
I still think that it may be at least a good experiment to see if there actually are players using the buyed DBs against me. If so, then the anonymous(or as in the case of Cake metioned by someone earlier in the thread 'limited to handmade notes') tables play may be slightly different from the normal game.

suit2please · Nov 23, 2010

Krk said:
No need to feel offended.

Not offended, I could careless whether or not someone dislikes the use of HUDs, they are allowed and will be used. My point is most people who argue against HUDs seem to believe they somehow tell you how to play. A HUD does not tell you to Fold, Check, Bet, or Raise, it doesn't tell you how much to bet and when. Things that do tell you how to play are against the rules at all the pokersites I play at, if not every single one.

zebadie · Nov 24, 2010

First up i think that the idea of to 'rabbit' is ridiculus, i would hate to see my outs that would have come out on the river etc lol.

Second...anonymous tables... i dont think it will catch on much but i dont mind the idea of nobody using huds, anybody can use them and i have no complaints about people using them, but it would be nice to know nobody has stats on you ranging over a lot of tournaments.
I would use these tables to see if i gained anything from them but only if you definately got a temperary alias (which lasts the full tourny). I dont like the idea of changing your actual alias every week..1..would you have to change your username everyweek with it? i'd eventually lose track and forget...2. What would this do to the rankings site, would that be abolished or would it be able to track each person, and would we be able to see them?

Overall i agree with any new feature as long as you get the option not to use it.

Anonymous tables/Future of online poker?.

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