Why re-raise all in with 23 big blinds??

[RamdeeBen]

Would I shove AJ UTG with 15bb at 100/200? No, I'd probably fold.

The easiest way to deal with hands such as AJ in EP is, if you are not willing to go with it for a 15bb stack, is just to fold.

This thread has actually turned in to something really interesting and something I'm learning from. You let me in to some of your play, which is good

As for A,J I'm confused, are you really willing to fold with 15bb's in EP? I thought this would be an instant shoving hand? What if you fold, I'm sure I've done this and tried waiting for a better spot you end up most of the time getting it in with a much worse hand and less blinds. I think I'd be shoving UTG with A,J - maybe that's why I'm no where near as good as you. I'd actually like some sweat sessions with you some time if you don't mind

On another note,

would you care to explain your shoving ranges from UTG? Any pairs or are you folding some?

By the way, I have a difficult one, 10-15bb's, UTG/UTG+1 low pairs 22-55? What do you do? Fold/shove or do you find there is more value even with a pair of 2-2s than A,J UTG?


ps: I think (would be good too if you consider it ) a thread purely dedicated to spots and situations where you will answer them yourself. Basically a HH section, but pascals answers lol. Yours seem quite an in dept good explanation which makes more sense to me! If not (might go against rules of the actual HH section) I will post them in your MTT thread, even though that would be quite a hi-jack which I don't want to do, so I think you go with making one for us or me haah.

 

[Shufflin]

It was a few days ago that I read the article, but I'm pretty sure the 23BB guy had TT and ended up doubling up on the hand. I know we don't like to be results-oriented, but knowing what he did have (as he did) I don't mind the line of play -- he totally decepticated the author!!

 

[Poker Orifice]

Well, I can't find this article so not read it but I too, don't understand.

I'm sure there must of been more underlying reason other than him not shoving rather than just calling.

For one, what was his raise with the 6'6s? If of course he raised 15x then a call would be bad, if it is just your standard 3x raise then you say he raised in middle postion, .

I'm not even going to read the rest of the post before I respond to this first part here. Come on.. 'if' the guy were to raise 15x?? Come on... OP isn't referring to some freeroll on Stars. 15x lolzz

 

[Poker Orifice]

Of course flatting in position with some hands with value isn't bad with 23bigblinds, unless like I say dan isn't telling all about this player. He might well of been calling nearly every pot prior so might of been a calling station and so saying inexperienced would be right. He could of been calling anything, again we don't know so again this could be a reason why he thinks he's inexperienced.
In my opinion, you're reading too much into this.. with a raise & call & then this guy sitting with a 23bb stack... pretty much standard spot to ship it with a decent hand. A typical/good player would shove here, a noob would flat. Not much to 'figure' into this at all imo.
Like I say, I'm sure there is a reason he said he thought he was inexperienced and should of shoved because of previous hands with this player. Shoving 23blinds just isn't correct play in general unless of course you hold the nuts and expect to be called.

.

It doesn't even have anything to do with prior hands played (or likely doesn't)... shoving 23blinds in a spot like that is 'correct play'.. not shoving isn't. Only time I'd consider flatting would be if I did hold the nuts with a stack of that size (but even then, vs. a good player the 'flat' would be suspicious & more deceptive to just ship your entire range that you'd be playing in that spot (ie. don't ship AK.. but then just 3bet or flat w AA )

 

[RamdeeBen]

I'm not even going to read the rest of the post before I respond to this first part here. Come on.. 'if' the guy were to raise 15x?? Come on... OP isn't referring to some freeroll on Stars. 15x lolzz

That was just an example, of course I don't expect 15x in a live event like that lol. Just there was information missing that was all, so we didn't know any stack sizes or anything.

 

[RamdeeBen]

It doesn't even have anything to do with prior hands played (or likely doesn't)... shoving 23blinds in a spot like that is 'correct play'.. not shoving isn't. Only time I'd consider flatting would be if I did hold the nuts with a stack of that size (but even then, vs. a good player the 'flat' would be suspicious & more deceptive to just ship your entire range that you'd be playing in that spot (ie. don't ship AK.. but then just 3bet or flat w AA )

Wow.

Well, I'm clearly doing some basic stuff very wrong then. I still think personally there is play left with 23blinds, I mean you does this mean you shove with 23blinds if you are indeed going to get involved in a hand?

I always had or worked with the theory of 10-15 blinds you may as well shove. For one, what if he's indeed holding Aces/Kings and you shove in to that? Or two overs to your middle pair? It's a coin flip, you don't mind taking flips at this stage? I don't mind flips with 15< or so.

Second, flat calling with Q,J or any connectors/suited I don't think is a bad idea, maybe I'm wrong. I'd only shove over with 10's+.

Surely you have some play left even if you check/fold, then you pick up a hand you can shove over the top with with less blinds? I just don't like the idea of shoving with 23blinds..

I can't ever imagine (happens very often) blinds 50/100 - avg stack size 2000-2500. You mean to tell me, it's correct to be shoving now if you have a hand you're willing to call with then shove over the top? You put your tournament line on a flip, when in my opinion there is still quite a bit of play left. Of course, we don't know how m any levels had passed, what the antes are etc but hmmmf - I don't like flipping "this" early anyway. Hell, after only 5 levels of play if you hadn't accumulated any chips you quite often are within the 20-25 range.

 

[Pascal-lf]

Ram - re shoving ranges, it depends on antes in play and antes not in play, and how tight/loose the table is

For example, if I'm UTG with AJo with 4.5k at 150/300/25, and it's a tight table, I probably shove AQ+ and 99+

If it was 3k at 100/200 on a tight table, I probably shove TT+ and I think even AQs there is pretty close...

As your stack decreases you can obv widen range, and I'll start shoving low pairs from ~13bb on really tight tables but on tables with standard calling range I don't think shoving UTG even with antes is good with 55 and below until you're down to about 8bb or so.

23bb is a great reshoving stack, but I'm very rarely shoving pre. Only times I think I would open shove pre is when I'm in like MP with 66-99 and a bunch of laggy players behind me, just because there are so many bad flops, I get called by worse, and I retain a ton of fold equity. I think it's also better to do this more often when you are deep in tournaments than at the start because even laggy players tend to nit up when the money starts getting bigger.

 

[Egon Towst]

It doesn't even have anything to do with prior hands played (or likely doesn't)... shoving 23blinds in a spot like that is 'correct play'.. not shoving isn't. Only time I'd consider flatting would be if I did hold the nuts with a stack of that size (but even then, vs. a good player the 'flat' would be suspicious & more deceptive to just ship your entire range that you'd be playing in that spot (ie. don't ship AK.. but then just 3bet or flat w AA )

^^this. That`s very much what I was saying in post #9 above.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I can`t read the article and am therefore a bit vague on the details, but in medium-stacked tournament play it would be standard among experienced players to either make the squeeze (ie. re-raise) or fold if you are in position with a raise and a call in front. I would guess that might be the meaning of the author`s remark. The second call seems weak, unless it`s a deliberately deceptive move.

Yah.. this ^ (if I'd bothered to read down thru the thread in the first place).
Ram, 23bb stack is ideal size to re-shove with. Maybe try watchin' some of the higher buyin MTTs & see what range they're re-shoving with (obv. need to make adjustments at lower buyins & micros), it's not unusual to see players getting their chips in over raises as they don't tend to sit with stacks of <30bb's much. Not unusual to see a player with 23bb's shove over a raise with stuff like J9s,QTs, etc. (even much less... depending upon player reads/situation).

 

[OzExorcist]

It was a few days ago that I read the article, but I'm pretty sure the 23BB guy had TT and ended up doubling up on the hand. I know we don't like to be results-oriented, but knowing what he did have (as he did) I don't mind the line of play -- he totally decepticated the author!!

TT is an easy shove in that spot as far as I'm concerned. We hate pretty much all overcards on the flop but if we shove worse hands can call. Flatting turns the hand into a naked set mine.

 

[baudib1]

I hate to even comment on this because this is tapping the glass but then again this is a forum for advice and I can't play anyway.

Whenever you call a bet on any street you must consider what your call does to the size of the pot relative to your stack size and then implications of what the next bet does as well.

LOL@ playing multiway pots postflop with 23 BBs.

 

[Pascal-lf]

I hate to even comment on this because this is tapping the glass

Surely the whole idea of the forum is to help people learn and develop their games? Plus the chance of actually playing anyone you've taught how to play over a large sample of hands which would affect your bb/100 or ROI significantly is tiny...

I learnt a lot from forums, wouldn't have progressed anywhere if people hadn't helped me out

 

[baudib1]

baudib1

but then again this is a forum for advice

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

.

I can't ever imagine (happens very often) blinds 50/100 - avg stack size 2000-2500. You mean to tell me, it's correct to be shoving now if you have a hand you're willing to call with then shove over the top? You put your tournament line on a flip, when in my opinion there is still quite a bit of play left. Of course, we don't know how m any levels had passed, what the antes are etc but hmmmf - I don't like flipping "this" early anyway. Hell, after only 5 levels of play if you hadn't accumulated any chips you quite often are within the 20-25 range.

Sure, but clearly this is later in the tournament and when you consider that the guy has an M~10, TT is clearly a shipping hand here. With 675 already in the pot and 23 BBs equals 6900, with a raise to 900 (assuming) there's not much point in flatting when you have to fold to most boards with J+ on them and no T. You don't really have the stack to float even in position not to mention, this looks like a squeeze play a lot of the time so you can definitely get called with worse.

 

[RamdeeBen]

I didn't even know he had TT lol. I thought the whole thing was based on the guy just flatting with a hand and being classed as donkey play. Of course it's easy to say ship the T-T, I'd ship there but I was referring to the Daniel saying "the guy was inexperienced because he should ship with 23bb/s or less but with him calling made me think he was indeed inexperienced"

I've seen many of top players just flat with 23bb/s left with suited connectors and other value hands in postion and either be willing to take a stab at it on the flop by getting their chips in or folding and waiting for the next spot.

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

Man. I can't imagine any situation where I'd call a raise with that stack size with suited connectors. That's just -EV all day long.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I've seen many of top players just flat with 23bb/s left with suited connectors .....in postion and either be willing to take a stab at it on the flop by getting their chips in or folding and waiting for the next spot.

List names or it didnt' happen.

 

[Pascal-lf]

List names or it didnt' happen.

czar19

 

[Poker Orifice]

czar19

names

 

[Pascal-lf]

He's only ranked number 1 in the world I guess

 

[RamdeeBen]

I can't just pick names out the sky, but from watching players play of the top of my head I've seen the same sort of plays from,

ramondemon77, johnnybax.

I'm not 100% sure on live circuit, can't pick any out but I'll be sure to try find some and let you know

 

[Poker Orifice]

I hate to even comment on this because this is tapping the glass but then again this is a forum for advice and I can't play anyway.

Whenever you call a bet on any street you must consider what your call does to the size of the pot relative to your stack size and then implications of what the next bet does as well.

LOL@ playing multiway pots postflop with 23 BBs.

this ^

 

[RamdeeBen]

this ^

A multiway pot is ideal though I'd of thought for a pocket pair (we now know he has 10's) Of course now I know that, I'd of shoved 10's however, even suited connectors multiway pot has some value.

Each to their own though I guess, but many of times I've played multiway pots with suited/middle pairs and flopped monsters, double/tripled up.

The only reason I don't like shoving at this point, is that what "if" you are up against over cards or a higher pair at this point and you just shoved your 23bb's in a stack? I've fell foul to this before myself and find there is still some play left, flatting in these spots. You can get away easily or take down the pot yourself if you think they are weak and shove them on the flop when they c-bet and you still have some fold equity left. Therefore you're getting much more chips and not putting your tournament life on the line here pre flop. If you think Daniel raised quite light, (6'6s) at this point, he puts out a standard c-bet and there are over's or even just a dry low card board and you shove, chances are he folds, but even might call - either way, it's profitable.

My personal preference anyway, then again I'm not exactly a massive winning player but I'm not a fan of shoving 23bb's the majority of the time,

 

[Pascal-lf]

One of the most profitable aspects of playing suited connectors is semibluffing with fold equity. One of the most profitable aspects of playing low pocket pairs is set mining.

Neither are profitable when you have 23bb.

 

[RamdeeBen]

I might trial out shoving any hand I decide to play with 23blinds, rather than just call.

Just seems way to extreme to be shoving your stack with a middle or overcards vs someone to win a 200-300 pot at times. It seems a bit daft to me, majority of the time you get called anyhow and are usually behind.

So another example,

blinds 100/200 in MTT.

I hold 4600 in chips with 10'10s or even suited connectors. Someone raises x3, in the cutoff. In effect you're telling me it's an easy shove to win 900 in chips at this point?

You might get a fold, however - from my personal experience a good 80% of the time if someone has raised they aren't really folding. They call anyway, you are in a flip at best. Is this correct to put your tournament life on the line here? Majority of the time though you are up against two overcards or a higher pair.

On another note - what about EV value? I've heard you say before you won't call of your stack in certain situations with 10-15 bb's with a pair if raised, you will fold yet not shove? I'm still quite new to it all so explain to meplease why you aren't happy getting it all in with a pair vs two overs or a higher pair with 10-15blinds with hardly any play left, yet willing to do the same when you have double the stack?

Do you ever shove with 20-25 blinds with suited connectors to a pre flop raise by the way? If not then what sort of hands are you playing at this point and shoving? Just high picture cards and high pairs? If so, then how long before your stack dwindles to a critical level when in the mean time you could of been limping a few pots or calling a small raise with some hands with lots of value?

Oh and one last thing if you don't mind At how many blinds do you stop calling raises with suited connectors or middle/low pocket pairs? Do you have a idea of how many blinds you need to do this? 50?

Last but not least! Sorry for the questions. If you're not faced with a raise and it comes round to you, you're basically SHOVING your 23 blinds with a hand you're willing to play then? No point in 3x as you be calling in a shove anyway?