Are there any pros around?

[Murph1969]

I play small to midstakes MTTs and the way this site and others teach the game does not work AT ALL. NOBODY folds to a preflop raise, especially if they already have money in the pot. Since every hand is multi-way you can’t c-bet. The only way to win a pot is to have the best hand. What am I missing? When is the last time you played small stakes and where exactly is this universe where the methods taught here actually work?

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

NOBODY folds to a preflop raise, especially if they already have money in the pot.

Oh, you have noticed .
Just raise higher, maybe this will work. If you go all in only chosen ones will call you.

 

[spunka]

play strong hands, strongly and you can c-bet and shall c-bet if you want the pot to grow, and you want that when your hit with your strong hands. dont play them cleverly trap e.tc. play straight forward

 

[300HPGOD]

I'd be interested in some examples of what is taught here that you have in question but let me lay out the scenario you are mentioning. Sounds like you are playing in a game where you are pre flop opening 2.5x or 3x or whatever your normal sizing is and then you are getting a consistent 2-4 callers every time you open. If that is the situation you are referring to then you tighten up, open less often and will therefore have stronger hands when you do so and then play them fast assuming your opponents dont fold post flop either. On top of that you must adjust what you think is a strong hand once the flop comes down. If you are getting that many callers every time you raise then your opponents probably play that way often and have a vpip (putting money in the pot) of 60% or so. Knowing that their range is much weaker than you think and maybe you do start c betting 2nd pair hands and definitely top pair hands since your opponents are wider and weaker. If all else fails and things are not going well then you can always play the way you want (natural, and what feels comfortable to you) and then when you get to 20 BBs or so you open jam instead of open raise and raise jam instead of just 3 betting. If your villains are truly too loose then they will call even your jams light and you will find yourself going from 20 BBs or so up to 40 BBs relatively consistently.

Poker is a game of constant adjustments. You have to play off what other people are doing and how they are playing against you. Im not great at this but Im working on it and understand that it is one of the keys to good poker. So again, if you feel you are getting called too much pre flop then you have to adjust up your hand strength thoughts on the flop (meaning maybe 2nd pair is still good against these loose wide ranged opponents) and also have to bet, bet, bet when you have any resemblance of a strong hand on the flop to punish those villains you are playing against you who are involved in too many hands.

 

[Murph1969]

I'd be interested in some examples of what is taught here that you have in question but let me lay out the scenario you are mentioning. Sounds like you are playing in a game where you are pre flop opening 2.5x or 3x or whatever your normal sizing is and then you are getting a consistent 2-4 callers every time you open. If that is the situation you are referring to then you tighten up, open less often and will therefore have stronger hands when you do so and then play them fast assuming your opponents dont fold post flop either. On top of that you must adjust what you think is a strong hand once the flop comes down. If you are getting that many callers every time you raise then your opponents probably play that way often and have a vpip (putting money in the pot) of 60% or so. Knowing that their range is much weaker than you think and maybe you do start c betting 2nd pair hands and definitely top pair hands since your opponents are wider and weaker. If all else fails and things are not going well then you can always play the way you want (natural, and what feels comfortable to you) and then when you get to 20 BBs or so you open jam instead of open raise and raise jam instead of just 3 betting. If your villains are truly too loose then they will call even your jams light and you will find yourself going from 20 BBs or so up to 40 BBs relatively consistently.

Poker is a game of constant adjustments. You have to play off what other people are doing and how they are playing against you. Im not great at this but Im working on it and understand that it is one of the keys to good poker. So again, if you feel you are getting called too much pre flop then you have to adjust up your hand strength thoughts on the flop (meaning maybe 2nd pair is still good against these loose wide ranged opponents) and also have to bet, bet, bet when you have any resemblance of a strong hand on the flop to punish those villains you are playing against you who are involved in too many hands.

I open the ranges taught on this very site and yes I usually open 3x.

 

[skaterick]

in tourneys having plenty of loose , active calling stations just start open shoving + re raise shoving more pre flop as murph suggested . you probably should have very strong hands if you do this (unless you plan to rebuy ). another option is to try to get in cheap having pairs and just give up if you dont flop a set in multi player pots .

 

[skaterick]

tourneys and cash games ( sadly mostly live ! ) that have great action are about the best spot you can hope for . you may be busting more often than you'd like but if you can manage to scoop some decent pots your chances are great .

 

[AKQ]

I play small to midstakes MTTs and the way this site and others teach the game does not work AT ALL. NOBODY folds to a preflop raise, especially if they already have money in the pot. Since every hand is multi-way you can’t c-bet. The only way to win a pot is to have the best hand. What am I missing? When is the last time you played small stakes and where exactly is this universe where the methods taught here actually work?

an opponents range is constructed
and then you should form a strategy around their range and tendancys
invent how to get value concepts and apply them into your strategy

 

[AKQ]

many different kinds of pros and players out there you know

Its an Ocean of Fish

 

[fundiver199]

You are basically saying, that all your opponents are terrible at poker, and therefore you cant win. First of all this makes no sense, because its far easier to beat bad players than to beat good player. And second if there is a poker site out there, where everyone are absolutely terrible and never fold, even in midstakes games, then please tell us, where it is, because then a lot of us want to go there and win some easy money

 

[Peteski84]

That gut feeling everyone gets from time to time can change the whole tables style of play that you think you have come to understand. Plays can become very different from what your expecting and they can be confusing, leaving you unsure. They can make or break it all.

 

[Peteski84]

That gut feeling everyone gets from time to time can change the whole tables style of play that you think you have come to understand. Plays can become very different from what your expecting and they can be confusing, leaving you unsure. They can make or break it all.

Lost as to what i was reading when i wrote this.

 

[fundiver199]

On a more serious note you have made a number of similar posts, where you basically say, that what is generally known as the TAG (tight aggressive) playing style dont work, because people dont fold. You have also said, that the CC 30 day course, which basically teach this style with focus on tournaments (as opposed to cash games), is useless.

I dont know you, so I dont know, what the problem really is. But it seems to me that part of it might be a lack of patience and managing expectations. You are not supposed to win every tournament or even session, you play. And especially with MTTs variance can be quite brutal and last for 1.000 games or more.

Also there is more to the TAG playing style than just raising preflop and C-betting the flop. Sure its nice and easy, when people fold on the early streets. But they are not supposed to always do that, so you need to be able to play the turn and river well, when you get action. It cant just be "oh my C-bet got called, so now I have no idea, what to do".

Sometimes you need to fire again on the turn and maybe even the river. Other times you need to check back and take a free card. And perhaps be ready to give up, if you still have either nothing or a weak pair on the river. This is basically just poker, and those days are long gone, where you could print money in online poker by raising preflop and C-betting every single flop. People are not that bad any more. Which is why, the CC course also focus on explaining when NOT to C-bet.

And as for your claim, that you play low and mid stakes MTTs, and every single hand goes multiway, I am sorry, but I just dont believe you. I think, you are either playing freerolls or perhaps microstakes, or you are wildly exaggerating. Yes SOME hands goes multiway, which is why, you need to learn to play multiway pots as well as heads-up pots. Multiway pots are also a part of poker.

And when you say, that "people never fold preflop especially after putting in chips already", well what was your sizing? Did you size your 3-bet or isolation raise (over limps) to small, so that you priced them in to call you? Or was it maybe a bad idea to raise to begin with? Its totally legit to have a calling range, both when people make an open, and when they limp. Especially if you are in the blinds and out of position. Or at least its legit, until you are so short, you can jam over their raise or limp. And then the flop is obviously not a concern, because the hand is over.

This is a poker forum, and if you are serious about wanting to improve your game, then I highly recommend to find some hands, that are complicated, and where you are really not sure, if you played them well. And then share them to the "tournament hand analysis" forum and get feedback from other forum members.

As a disclaimer I am not a professional poker player, but I have played for years, and I am a proven long term winner in micro (<$5) and low ($5-19) stakes MTTs as well as SnGs on pokerstars, 888 Poker and ACR (small sample). And I basically use the TAG style, which you claim dont work. I rarely do anything fance, but having played tousinds of MTTs and SnGs I have of course develoved some instincts for things like, when I can hero call, when I should fold, when I can bet for value, and when I should pot control.

 

[Murph1969]

I’m not gonna respond to every one of your points. It’s easy to criticize. Would you walk me through how to post a hand? How do I find a hand to post among the thousands I’ve played? Yes, I’ve looked at the replayer.

 

[jaymfc]

I’m not gonna respond to every one of your points. It’s easy to criticize. Would you walk me through how to post a hand? How do I find a hand to post among the thousands I’ve played? Yes, I’ve looked at the replayer.

my suggestion is to get someone to explain stuff to you.
it is not easy to criticize something you have no knowledge of but you seem to have no problem there.
the player above and cardschat poker lessons are well-experienced and 100% right.
people have been learning from cardschat for 18 years and some have went PRO.

the very first thing you need to do is get off those play money tables and get some real experience playing cardschat freerolls.
fill in your profile with any poker site user names so we know who you are at the tables, it is mandatory
fill in anything else you want to share with your new friends and fellow poker players so we can all know each other a little better,
not mandatory but appreciated by other players. best of luck sir it will get better with experience.

 

[Murph1969]

my suggestion is to get someone to explain stuff to you.
it is not easy to criticize something you have no knowledge of but you seem to have no problem there.
the player above and cardschat poker lessons are well-experienced and 100% right.
people have been learning from cardschat for 18 years and some have went PRO.

the very first thing you need to do is get off those play money tables and get some real experience playing cardschat freerolls.
fill in your profile with any poker site user names so we know who you are at the tables, it is mandatory
fill in anything else you want to share with your new friends and fellow poker players so we can all know each other a little better,
not mandatory but appreciated by other players. best of luck sir it will get better with experience.

I don’t play fake money. I play at Bovada where everyone is anonymous.

 

[Gallarado777]

play for big money at low limits this rarely works if you want to play really well, you should raise your limits

 

[jaymfc]

I don’t play fake money. I play at Bovada where everyone is anonymous.

well maybe I should join there, sounds very profitable. but my point was you need to play our daily freerolls where you will get a higher quality player,
plus we all have names and you will get to know how we play so you can keep notes on each of us, it helps.
hope to see you soon

 

[jonaselloco]

Hi, friend
Well I don't have much to add to our friend Fundiver199's comment that he is an experienced player and he has told you what the world of poker is like.
I really agree with him on everything. Although you say that you play low stakes, I think you are talking about freerolls more than anything.
In low bets it is already played in the way that the poker manuals express.
What really does not mean that you open from MP with AA and the BB decides to pay your bet including an all in with 22.
As Fundiver says, if you play well, you will win many more times than you will lose. Although the luck factor must always be taken into account and can be on the side of the villain.
Look I'll show you my hand of the weekend, with 99 I did everything the poker manual said and see how it ends.
In poker we must get used to badbeats, bingo players, bluffs and being shown it, we must get used to all kinds of situations that can happen at a table.
This is not chess brother, you make an Italian opening and the other knows how to play it. This is poker and you have to get used to dealing with hundreds of factors at a table and in an MTT.
I hope you can improve your game and have more luck, I wish you.
And another thing, peer criticism is constructive. All criticism is for us to learn and solve the problem that occurs to us.
Greetings Carlos

 

[Murph1969]

Hi, friend
Well I don't have much to add to our friend Fundiver199's comment that he is an experienced player and he has told you what the world of poker is like.
I really agree with him on everything. Although you say that you play low stakes, I think you are talking about freerolls more than anything.
In low bets it is already played in the way that the poker manuals express.
What really does not mean that you open from MP with AA and the BB decides to pay your bet including an all in with 22.
As Fundiver says, if you play well, you will win many more times than you will lose. Although the luck factor must always be taken into account and can be on the side of the villain.
Look I'll show you my hand of the weekend, with 99 I did everything the poker manual said and see how it ends.
In poker we must get used to badbeats, bingo players, bluffs and being shown it, we must get used to all kinds of situations that can happen at a table.
This is not chess brother, you make an Italian opening and the other knows how to play it. This is poker and you have to get used to dealing with hundreds of factors at a table and in an MTT.
I hope you can improve your game and have more luck, I wish you.
And another thing, peer criticism is constructive. All criticism is for us to learn and solve the problem that occurs to us.
Greetings Carlos

Never played a freeroll in my life.

 

[jaymfc]

Never played a freeroll in my life.

won't cost you a penny to try, you could be top dog here huh

 

[MishkaZL]

I play small to midstakes MTTs and the way this site and others teach the game does not work AT ALL. NOBODY folds to a preflop raise, especially if they already have money in the pot. Since every hand is multi-way you can’t c-bet. The only way to win a pot is to have the best hand. What am I missing? When is the last time you played small stakes and where exactly is this universe where the methods taught here actually work?

Everyone has their own understanding of the game. You should first of all learn from your own mistakes and experience. No one can give you a strategy for playing successfully from start to finish.

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

First of all this makes no sense, because its far easier to beat bad players than to beat good player.

Of course when luck is not on their side. Or you play volume.

 

[fundiver199]

Would you walk me through how to post a hand? How do I find a hand to post among the thousands I’ve played? Yes, I’ve looked at the replayer.

The easiest way is to use a tracker like PT4. Then all your hands are collected there, and after playing a tournament you can either look for the biggest pots, you were involved in, or replay every single hand in the replayer. You can also mark a hand for later review, just after you played it. Hands, that are interesting to review, are those, where there was action, and it was not just a standard cooler or a bad beat. If your QQ ran into KK, that obviously sucks. But there is likely not anything, you could have done to lose less, at least not with typical tournament stacks of 50BB or less.

PT4 dont work on Bovada. Bovada might be a soft site to play on, but if you want to get better at poker, I will recommend to open an account on a site, which is not anonymous, and where both trackers and HUDs work. If you are allowed to play there, then PokerStars is great for learning, since it has a wide selection of games and a lot of good players. If you cant play on Stars, then ACR is a good option. When you can beat the games on PokerStars or ACR, you can always go back to Bovada or other anonymous sites and see, if your winrate is higher there.

Assuming you have a tracker, then you copy the hand history from there and use the free hand converter here on CC to share the hand history in a convenient format. If you dont have a tracker, the way to do it will naturally depend on the poker site, and since I dont play on Bovada, I dont know how to get a hand history from there.

 

[fundiver199]

Of course when luck is not on their side. Or you play volume.

Yes and this is where patience and managing expectations comes in. Just because someone is a loose recreational player AKA "fish" does not mean, they are never supposed to win a hand. The fact, even bad players can get lucky and have a winning section, is basically what keep the games alive. Also in todays online games even "fish" are typically not totally clueless about poker and especially postflop. They are focused on having fun rather than studying and improving, but that does not mean, they will always pay you off or never try to bluff you. Some have played for years, and might have a better "feel" for postflop play that some beginner regs.