Is there any argument for folding AA preflop on the first hand of a MTT?

[Dobbler1]

I've had aces cracked multiple times in the first couple of hands of a MTT by lunatics that shove with pretty much any two cards. I wonder if there's some sort of ICM argument for folding. The best odds of a single hand cracking your aces is a little less than 25% preflop, but if multiple shoves happen, the odds of one of the shovers cracking your aces goes up. If it were a cash game there's no question because the pot size increases proportionately (or greater than... not sure of the math) to the chances of getting cracked does, so your equity is always good. I think that if it is a deep stack tourney that's not turbo/hyper the case is a little stronger.

Thoughts? Honestly, I don't think I'd fold AA preflop ever (even on the bubble), but it's something I've thought about from time to time, and wonder if anyone has any interesting thoughts.

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

I think cracked premium hands is the most common topic on this site and wouldn't be surprised if you searched would be the most talked about topic.

There is more to playing a hand then just what you have. If you play any hand with multiple players then your odds of winning go down. If youre in a tourn and decide to go against a chip leader or someone that has you covered then you risk a chance of being busted, its that simple.

I had one person taking about QQ and didn't understand positional play and all the information that was supplied in the hand and still went with the hand although an opponent was screaming KK in the hand.

And if you're playing in a tourn then its more about your chip count then the hands anyway. lol The hands are a means to move the chip numbers but the only thing that matters is the chip count in a tourn.

 

[Dobbler1]

I think cracked premium hands is the most common topic on this site and wouldn't be surprised if you searched would be the most talked about topic.

There is more to playing a hand then just what you have. If you play any hand with multiple players then your odds of winning go down. If youre in a tourn and decide to go against a chip leader or someone that has you covered then you risk a chance of being busted, its that simple.

I had one person taking about QQ and didn't understand positional play and all the information that was supplied in the hand and still went with the hand although an opponent was screaming KK in the hand.

And if you're playing in a tourn then its more about your chip count then the hands anyway. lol The hands are a means to move the chip numbers but the only thing that matters is the chip count in a tourn.

I get that. I'm wondering about late position with roughly equal stack sizes (because it's the first hand or two of the tourney) where loosing the hand will actually or virtually knock you out, with say 3 players shoving ahead. More often than not, you'll quadruple up, which is a huge benefit, but not a guarantee you'll finish ITM. It you get busted close to half the time in this situation (just a guess, don't know what the actual math is), then you are totally out. I'm curious if there's any math that supports or rebuts this line of reasoning.

 

[Tigroslav]

The times you quadruple up should give you great chances of winning the tournament and are well worth the risk of busting given you have the best equity and a made hand.
In fact you are praying for others to have made hands (under pairs) or share each others outs
which are both likely scenarios.
I think youd be in worst shape against three completely random hands which is not too likely
even in a donkament and would still be best to call.

 

[Dobbler1]

The times you quadruple up should give you great chances of winning the tournament and are well worth the risk of busting given you have the best equity and a made hand.
In fact you are praying for others to have made hands (under pairs) or share each others outs
which are both likely scenarios.
I think youd be in worst shape against three completely random hands which is not too likely
even in a donkament and would still be best to call.

If we assumed reasonably good play (which isn't necessarily a good assumption), then there's actually a decent chance that one of the shovers has the other two aces or one or two of them have AK, which makes your hand difficult to improve should it need to.

I mean I think you're probably right, but I'm looking for the devil's advocate position. I'm trying to see if there is any reasonably compelling argument for folding them.

 

[63burner]

If you have lost the feeling, fold 'em

Even though AA is the big favorite heads-up, it's hard to clear out all the opponents at your table in the early stages of an MTT. If you got lucky with AA pocket and have had bad results in your past, I could see folding AA, especially if the rest of the table is playing, nobody folds.
There is also the case for shoving AA, to build a stack in early stage of MTT,

 

[makisaa]

If you are running a period with failed aces and you feel they will have problem again, then you just trust your estimation and just fold them. Go to the next hand!

 

[Tigroslav]

If we assumed reasonably good play (which isn't necessarily a good assumption), then there's actually a decent chance that one of the shovers has the other two aces or one or two of them have AK, which makes your hand difficult to improve should it need to.

I mean I think you're probably right, but I'm looking for the devil's advocate position. I'm trying to see if there is any reasonably compelling argument for folding them.

Their hands are the ones that need improving first.
And you have two blockers.
AA is so rarely relying on hitting trips to be profitable you shouldn't worry about it.

 

[FF2586]

Come on guys !
Are you really discussing folding aces at any game or any time preflop ?
The only time I would fold aces preflop is when I am on the bubble in a sattelite MTT. THAT'S ALL

Never fold aces in an MTT preflop, never ! Don't do it in a sng nor in a cash game
Never (only sattelite bubble)

 

[PLAYFUL1]

I never ever fold ppAA's preflop in any MTT or cash game because its the best hand that you can have. I'm always prepared to lose with them 2...

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

I get that. I'm wondering about late position with roughly equal stack sizes (because it's the first hand or two of the tourney) where loosing the hand will actually or virtually knock you out, with say 3 players shoving ahead. More often than not, you'll quadruple up, which is a huge benefit, but not a guarantee you'll finish ITM. It you get busted close to half the time in this situation (just a guess, don't know what the actual math is), then you are totally out. I'm curious if there's any math that supports or rebuts this line of reasoning.

Did you try putting this into a simple odds calculator to see how much of a favorite your premium hand would be against 3 random hands? There's an odds calculator here at cards chat and at cardsplayer that would tell you how many times you would win/loss a hand preflop.

The only warning I would give you is if you're willing to play like this or at least not consider the dangers of putting your stack in the middle like this especially against numerous opponents then no amount of chips will help you.

I see this literally everyday with aggressive beginners that toss their chips in the middle at the beginning of freerolls and low buyin tourns to get huge chip counts and get tossed when another big stack gets moved the the table or they're unable to "switch gears" or their luck runs out.

Good tourn players aren't trying to put their chips in the middle but grind out accumulating chips here and there keeping pace with the blinds and only going all in when they have very strong hands post flop. And when I mean strong hands, I mean more than a pair and/or much better than a coin flip. The last thing they want to do is put themselves out there for bingo donk to get lucky on them after working hard in a tourn especially if they're playing for hours and hours and really if they're in one of those multi day tourns, lol.

So yeah throw in your favorite hand into an odds calculator and see if the risks are worth it and go from there.

GL and cheers!!

 

[Atararo14]

Yes, there are situations when you can fold AA preflop in MTT to minimize risk.

For example, you are short stack on the bubble and all the players before you go all in, you know that there are certainly players who bust to ensure a paid place.

 

[fundiver199]

The short answer is no. Actually its great to bust in the first hand of an MTT, as long as you played well and made a long term profitable play. The reason is, then you did not waste any time, and often you can simply reenter and still play the MTT. Just ask yourself, if you would rather play for 2 hours and then still bust without cashing because of a similar bad beat? Unless you are playing purely for fun, the answer should be a clear "no".

 

[oleg8519]

if let's say you have 100 blades and you play for $1,000,000 in prize money then the risks are not justified

 

[antonis32123]

I do not care for icm or whatever very early and not in the bubble or in the FT . It's AA preflop shove , I call everytime . It's the micros where I play, not a 10.000$ tourney .

 

[steve01991]

i would not call an all in, but i would love to play them and see how the hand unfolds! Sadly there are cowboys out there that think its a good strategy to go all in off the get go!

 

[benitwapasu]

I would never fold aces even on the bubble---or kings either

 

[jack12de]

I have asked me this question, too. But no Answer. ICM Tools I know oly for one table. But if you are in the big blind and there are 8 All ins, perhaps it would be better to fold.

 

[Eduard0Felipe]

It's so hard for me to leave with a pair of AA that I never thought about giving up, today I came across 5 pair of AA that took my chips, luckily none of the times were all, I wasn't eliminated by them, but I doubled some guys short, unfortunately I left with only 1 today and I didn't get to double up, but that's ok, I have a lot of patience, I hit a few outs a time or two too, so move on. In the end, it would have to be in a very specific situation, bubble, premium, ICM, in short, a situation that shouldn't happen very often with someone, so relax, eventually when you get your pair of spikes, bet high and hope to hold , there are not many other things to be done.

 

[miriancastro]

Never, I will always pay

 

[Kashmir]

I believe you have a very strong argument for doing just that…fold them if you have no equity in the pot. I am struggling with the same problem… I more often lose with a high pocket pair to a table with more than 3 players in the pot. If I’m in middle position and no raiser I’ll come in for 2.5 BB, but if I get more callers or reraiser and another caller behind the ReR then depending on my stack I will call or fold. I’m finding my poker game is weakened by playing online, why? cause it feels so staged with the algorithm that’s play out, and if you play like most poker pros teach then it feels like the game will play a flop which doesn’t connect with you but will often play to the weaker hands that follow into pots and you need to fold your chips away or try to hero out…which never works.

 

[thedarkman]

You lose more money with good hands than with garbage. 7-2 is an automatic fold in the big blind to any raise If someone goes all-in and you have aces then three people call behind you...

 

[hobojim1247]

I would not fold if the tournament had a reentry provision. BUT if did not and was the MAIN EVENT of the wsop, I would muck them.

 

[Marshmalo1994]

Maybe if there are too many players all in

 

[Pavel1203733]

Hello.
I think that such move doesn't have any reasons. This seems very strange for the first hand.