Take all your rebuys at the beginning?

[Jacki Burkhart]

well the situation you described is kinda moot,
A)you rebuy instantly, and lose half your stack because you cover when you get coloured

B) you get coloured and rebuy, stack is the same as above.

the value comes in being deeper. your edge is amplified in terms of chips. i would think the payoff takes care of itself. consider it a 300 tourney which people are allowed to buy in short. would you actively buy in short?

Ok that makes perfect sense. but coolers land on both sides and I'm just as likely to be the benefactor of a cooler and now have a double stack "for free" which is like an instant cash out of $100.

And as a good tourney player I'm usually only gonna cash 10-20% of the time so if I buy the extra chips then get massively lucky and have a huge stack I can't cash part of my stack in for cash on the spot (like in a cash game)

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

It would be worth mentioning (I play these same games with MJ) that even if we double and get a big stack early we are almost always taking the rebuy at the end of the rebuy period. So the real question is do you take it right away or at the end of the rebuy period? I usually lean to waiting until the end of the rebuy period unless something goes wrong early and I loose a bunch of chips (I'll usually wait until I loose over half a starting stack).

Also I'll mention MJ is always one of the top two players at any table in these tournaments.

This is the same strategy I apply and I'd say most of the players seem to follow suit. But I'm not assuming it's optimal...we might be diminishing our edge by doing this but do we diminish our ROI?

Also...it just occurred to me this whole topic may be a matter of style. My style is to hang around with an average stack for hours and hours and then come alive at the bubble and beyond. I feel consistently arriving at the bubble with a relevant stack is one of my biggest strengths and I feel I make good decisions at these stack sizes. Other players may be more well suited to the big stack bully style. It's never really been my style...even when I get a big stack I'm more likely to protect it and just open up my game a little bit and chip up steadily without taking big risks.

 

[HooDooKoo]

Ok that makes perfect sense. but coolers land on both sides and I'm just as likely to be the benefactor of a cooler and now have a double stack "for free" which is like an instant cash out of $100.

And as a good tourney player I'm usually only gonna cash 10-20% of the time so if I buy the extra chips then get massively lucky and gave a huge stack I can't cash part of my stack in for cash on the spot (like in a cash game)

If you're a good big stack player --- which I'm sure you are if you're generally one of the top two players at a given table --- then a big stack reduces the need for luck. You know that. So how do you not intuitively see the advantage of having the big stack?

-HooDooKoo

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

If you're a good big stack player --- which I'm sure you are if you're generally one of the top two players at a given table --- then a big stack reduces the need for luck. You know that. So how do you not intuitively see the advantage of having the big stack?

-HooDooKoo

I DO intuitively see the advantage of having a big stack.

I question whether purchasing that big stack increases my ROI more than my other option which is winning it.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Hmmmm....how to say what I'm trying to say...?

I guess....in most tournaments I usually end up with a big stack at some point anyways...but I still don't cash in most tournaments. Having a big stack at the END is when it matters...and you can't buy that...

 

[Everybodylovesdeuces]

Let's try it next time. I know I am a real jerk when I have a huge stack so I should probably take it right away.

 

[HooDooKoo]

I do intuitively see the advantage of having a big stack.
I question whether purchasing that big stack increases my ROI more than my other option which is winning it.

I would rather guarantee myself a big stack from the get-go --- because I know how to wield it properly --- than rely on a combination of good cards and good play to earn me a big stack. Sometimes the cards and/or the "poker gods" don't cooperate --- especially if I end up in a seat from which stealing is tough. Guaranteeing that I'm a big stack to start is a big advantage for me, so I would pay for it --- every time. I think that's true for most thinking/successful players.

I have no idea how it would impact you and your play. You could try it and see how it goes for you. If it increases your edge, stick with it. If you don't feel it doesn't increase your edge, then go back to what you've been doing. My guess is that you'll that your play improves with the insta-big stack, at which point you'll decide it's definitely +EV --- but I've been wrong before.

Either way, best of luck.

-HooDooKoo

 

[Steffel]

I never rebuy right at the beginning either. There has only been a few times when it was just before the rebuy ended and I got knocked out i would rebuy twice just because the blinds were high enough I need more than just a couple BB.

 

[hffjd2000]

This is the same strategy I apply and I'd say most of the players seem to follow suit. But I'm not assuming it's optimal...we might be diminishing our edge by doing this but do we diminish our ROI?

Also...it just occurred to me this whole topic may be a matter of style. My style is to hang around with an average stack for hours and hours and then come alive at the bubble and beyond. I feel consistently arriving at the bubble with a relevant stack is one of my biggest strengths and I feel I make good decisions at these stack sizes. Other players may be more well suited to the big stack bully style. It's never really been my style...even when I get a big stack I'm more likely to protect it and just open up my game a little bit and chip up steadily without taking big risks.

With that, case close then.

 

[jtholdm]

REBUYS

Here is my take on the re buy. I always first off buy in for the original amount and always do the addon regardless of how many chips I have, Unless I have the largest stack and no one can come near me even with an add on. Next I will rebuy after about 30-45 minutes depending how I am running. If I am getting bad beat after bad beat I will not re buy but if my cards are holding nicely and the donkey hands don't hold up than I will re-buy before the hour is up.

 

[mendiolacubicle]

I don't buy any rebuys for tourneys but the reasoning of the players here give me an idea that I must or at least take the advantage of the rebuy. Wil try that on my next tourney! 😊

 

[intents09]

From comments I'm reading I'm a bit confused. Another reason I rebuy straight away is if I am building that stack during the rebuy period without rebuying, then the end of the rebuy period comes and I can't rebuy, as I'm above starting stack. So I'd rather pay for that jump right away. But some of the comments from missjacki make me believe they can rebuy at any point in the rebuy period regardless of chips. Is this true? If so, the decision for me then would still vary, but more often than not I still rebuy right off the bat. This is a tourney style I would consider waiting though, if I am running well, and have a good but not overly large stack, I may take advantage of adding those chips on later just before the addon I'm going to do as well. But being most rebuys I've played or am familiar with the rebuy is only available while starting stack or below, I tend to always just rebuy straight away.

 

[jtholdm]

If the tourney has multiple rebuys you can buy as long as your lower than the original buy in. ex if your original is 2K chips and you have below that you can re-buy again to gain 2k more in chips. so if the blinds were 10-20 that would give you a total of 3970. Now some have only one rebuy depending on the tourney I still wait about 35 min to decide

 

[Tammy]

From comments I'm reading I'm a bit confused. Another reason I rebuy straight away is if I am building that stack during the rebuy period without rebuying, then the end of the rebuy period comes and I can't rebuy, as I'm above starting stack. So I'd rather pay for that jump right away. But some of the comments from missjacki make me believe they can rebuy at any point in the rebuy period regardless of chips. Is this true? If so, the decision for me then would still vary, but more often than not I still rebuy right off the bat. This is a tourney style I would consider waiting though, if I am running well, and have a good but not overly large stack, I may take advantage of adding those chips on later just before the addon I'm going to do as well. But being most rebuys I've played or am familiar with the rebuy is only available while starting stack or below, I tend to always just rebuy straight away.

Pretty sure missjacki is talking about live play here.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Pretty sure missjacki is talking about live play here.

Yes. Live play. Usually 1 rebuy per player max. Sometimes 2 rebuys allowed. Never unlimited. Can rebuy anytime even if you have more than a starting stack.

 

[VizziVizo]

I try not to make rebuys. better for me to start a new tournament than invest more money in the previous especially when you have no more than 15 big blinds.

 

[intents09]

Yes. Live play. Usually 1 rebuy per player max. Sometimes 2 rebuys allowed. Never unlimited. Can rebuy anytime even if you have more than a starting stack.

Yeah then that answers the question for me. I'm not gonna start hand 1 with the rebuy but I will most certainly add it before rebuy period ends unless I have such a stack that the rebuy hardly moves it, in which case I'll save the money. But I'm with you jacki, I don't think starting right away with a rebuy in this tourney structure is an always do or don't do. Just depends on the player. Also I guess if everyone at your table has started with double chips then it's beneficial to surely but even then not always necessary.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

I try not to make rebuys. better for me to start a new tournament than invest more money in the previous especially when you have no more than 15 big blinds.

it's live...can't just go start another tourney.

Also, the standard starting stack is 150bbs, and after 25 minutes will be 75bbs.

If you buy a double stack then you start with 300bbs and have 150bbs after 25 mins. I don't feel like that significantly changes the playability of my stack. In general I'll have the same moves available to me. Maybe I cannot 4bet light preflop (which I don't do much anyways) and maybe I can't bluff at certain rivers....but other than that I'll generally have my entire game and moves available to me for the first 2 levels.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Let's try it next time. I know I am a real jerk when I have a huge stack so I should probably take it right away.

I was thinking this. I think for YOUR style, since you are a beast when you have a stack you should probably start buying a double stack from the get go. Especially since we always end up taking the re-buy and add-on like 90+% of the time anyways.

I would rather guarantee myself a big stack from the get-go --- because I know how to wield it properly --- than rely on a combination of good cards and good play to earn me a big stack. Sometimes the cards and/or the "poker gods" don't cooperate --- especially if I end up in a seat from which stealing is tough. Guaranteeing that I'm a big stack to start is a big advantage for me, so I would pay for it --- every time. I think that's true for most thinking/successful players.

I have no idea how it would impact you and your play. You could try it and see how it goes for you. If it increases your edge, stick with it. If you don't feel it doesn't increase your edge, then go back to what you've been doing. My guess is that you'll that your play improves with the insta-big stack, at which point you'll decide it's definitely +EV --- but I've been wrong before.

Either way, best of luck.

-HooDooKoo

I've decided to try it. I'm not sure if for my style it will necessarily increase my ROI; but I have little to lose since I generally end up taking the rebuy anyways.

Perhaps this will enhance my game to teach me to better wield a big stack.

I had an inkling I would end up at this decision before I posted the thread...but I'm the type of analytical windbag who likes to fully understand WHY I am doing things and not just tag-along with a group mentality because "the good players are doing it so that means I should too..."

Thanks for all the responses and humoring my cross-examination. Everybody brought lots of great perspectives to this discussion! (especially HooDooKoo!)

 

[DAMAN74]

I agree with the idea of having a large stack right away!

 

[Gorak]

I'm not as experienced as others in this thread but I think if you plan on playing a Rebuy/Addon tournament; you should always budget the Rebuy/Addon as part of the initial buyin. And always take the rebuy at the start of the tournament.

When entering a tournament you are shooting for 1st place because that is where the real money is. So having the maximum amount of chips at the start is crucial.

The only time I don't Rebuy/Addon is when I won a promo ticket that is out of my comfort zone for bankroll management. In those cases I usually late reg and play push or fold; but that is another story.

 

[mrsshlotter]

to rebuy or not? well i hate rebuys. hate add ons even more

 

[jtholdm]

Before I rebuy I like to see were I am at within the first 40 min of the game if I am down and feel it I will rebuy once and one add-on I always do the addon The benefit of waiting is it gives you chance to build your stack so you don't have to rebuy

 

[Ambur]

It's massively -EV to not buy to the maximum assuming you feel you have an edge vs most of the players. It's even more so if the fish double/triple rebuy and you don't. If your thought process really is you feel you're one of the better players at the table and everyone else is rebuying then the logic doesn't make sense.

Sure you might run it up, but look at how much you're passing up on.

Say it's 6 handed and 5 of the players all have 3000x starting stack and all triple rebuy to 9000x stack and you're better than them all yet you decide to just not rebuy. Instead of potentially winning 9000x in a hand, you have to win 2 stacks worth from other stacks during the rebuy period to just get to even vs the bad players.

It's like the same logic with the cash games, if you're the best player at the table you NEED to have at the least everyone covered at the table or you're just passing up way to much on EV. Coolers or variance shouldn't effect your decision to rebuy either by the way.

The only time I'd advocate not rebuying is if either, you don't have an edge (which you shouldn't really be playing the game anyway) OR if you're shot taking and it's just terrible BR management to rebuy etc. Problem with these situations though is you shouldn't even be in the game to start with unless your'e some how free rolling the event by winning a ticket from somewhere or someone just decided to buy you in then you can just try run it up and try play it like a freeze out. Oh and also maybe one other circumstance where not rebuying is an option. Say you feel you have an edge in the actual tournament yet somehow manage to draw the worse table and are -EV vs everyone then not rebuying to the maximum seems correct until a table change.

This is briliant! All what need to be say about the topic and nicely written!

If you have edge of the field rebuy is far more +ev! imo

 

[CheddarBob]

having bigger stacks initially allow you to bet even just slightly larger into players to get them to fold as a bigger bet to you is an even bigger % of the opponents stack getting them to call less and allowing you to increase your stack right from the start. you are also doing 2 things when you do this. you are also splashing around more often and are more likely to get big hands paid off. i would then have to believe if there are a lot of people not rebuying at all immediately they are most likely pretty tight and just trying to get to add-on without rebuying. lets say you sit down at the table and 1 person takes max and 2 others take one rebuy and you take one rebuy. that makes five people that sit down with minimum. lets say only 3 of them are tight. theres a decent chance you will have position on at least one. if you don't like to rebuy then stay away from the bigger stacks during rebuy period unless you get a monster obv. just pick on the small stacks in position accumulate some chips take add-on and you will more likely than not have a pretty good size stack. i also get buying in for max but if one rebuy gets you 200bb you can play plenty of pots and get the same image as you would have 300bb. i guess it comes down to what you can afford and if you can't really afford to buy in max or its too big of a percentage of your bankroll then your playing too high of tourneys. at the same time if your just taking a shot here and there at bigger tourneys then you might as well get the biggest advantage possible and take the max right at the start.