Passive big stacked donk, what would you do?

[madison79]

If the structure was heavily weighted towards the few tops spots like in a MTT then id probably agree shoving is better, But in a 9 man sng, the payouts are fairly flat, cashing is the long term winning strat...

As soon as the bubble burst 60% of the prize pool is given out. so no matter what anyone says, getting into the money has to be goal #1. next goal is winning. perhaps we don't give ourselves the best chance of winning here, but cashing is our goal, especially when short, with another shortstack present. And there is no reason to say that if we cash here, that we can't win, it's still possible, especially with escalating blinds, in that it only takes a double up or two.

Thing to think about is that yes cashing is important but if you want a nice High ROI you need to get more first than 3rds. If you switch my first places and 3rds my ROI drops from 12% to 4%.

 

[WiZZiM]

Yep, you want more firsts than 3rds, and more 3rds than 2nd's..

A really good distribution would look something like
1st/2nd/3rd/4th
13/11/12/12

You need to be bubbling quite a bit too.

But really, this has very little to do with the OP.

 

[madison79]

Well, I was relating it to the fact that I would rather shove here and play for a chance to get second than just slip into the money. If the Sb is walking the BB a lot then I think he isn't going to call 27% of the time so that might make this a shove if you mess with his calling range.
I'm shoving here with 5BB since I still have fold equity and I'm shoving into the other small stack.
Also, if the guy on my left isn't going to give me walks I need to find spots to shove and take chance vs bleeding off.
KJ is pretty decent hand to shove from the button. I would rather have an A with card removal but still think its decent spot all things considered.

 

[WiZZiM]

how wide would you expect a donk to call with? since calling isn't exactly going to cripple his stack... I don't think i said he was tight, but passive yes, in the fact that he doesnt know sng strat, and wont shove in unexpliotbale anytwo spots. But his calling range is still wide enough here that it makes shoving bad.. i mean, sure, i can toy around with the ranges till it makes it a nuetral shove, but, i feel that, even though he may not be calling as wide as 27% 23-25 is a decent range, which is still a fold..

I do like the thinking of "oh i want to get into the higher pay brackets" but perhaps this isn't a spot where we want to do it? id prefer shoving over folding though, and calling over both options. And besides, if the sb isn't going to call us wide, since he's passive, it stands to reason he wont shove over us wide either, so by limping, he folds most of the time, and we achieve the same thing shoving would have done, but without the risk of getting snap called. And if he does shove, the BB will fold a fair chunk of the time and we fold to leaving him with 1/2 a BB.

I mean sure, go for the top places, but not at the expense on long term equity, shoving in this spot is a losing play in the long run...

 

[madison79]

Okay, I just looked at the hand again and saw that BB has 50 chips after posting. My bad. I thought he had 150 behind after posting so I then it was pretty easy shove.
In this situation. I would mini raise to 200.
We mini raise:
SB folds and it doesn't matter what he BB does.
SB calls and the Bb folds, we play super tight and look to ditch the hand. Just don't want the BB to get any chips cuz he is all in the next hand.

SB raises and the BB folds: Fold since we still have 300 chips and BB is all in next hand. Again we don't want the shorty to get chips.

SB raises and the BB shoves I think I call since he has to beat us both for us not to get paid. I like the 2 on 1 vs the shorty. Plus side pot might give us more chips than the main.
Cheers Bill

 

[WiZZiM]

Min raising isn't great, limping achieves exactly the smae, but we save an extra 100 chips when the sb decides to shove over us. I don't mind the thinking of overcalling though.