Making money from SNG's

[Poker Orifice]

Your shoving ranges sounds way too tight at these late stages. It's a red flag if the field appears to aggressive in a short stacked stage of a sng. In general, the field doesn't understand how loose you can profitably open shove. Look for spots to open shove <10 BB with suited connectors and above from late middle and late position. see what happens and you might have a revelation that the other players aren't playing that aggressive afterall

i think 27 and 45 man SNGs are the best place to build a roll for a newbie.

Wow, thanks for the responses. This has definitely given me a lot to think about.



I realise that I would have to re-adjust my play to do better in the tournaments that I have been entering, but I really just don't see how. I'm not exaggerating when I say that when these games get down to the final 20% of players, every single hand, 1 or more players will go all-in, pre-flop.

The only strategy I have is to wait for a massive hand and push all-in pre-flop. A few times my AA/KK has been smashed by 7,2 offsuit. This isn't poker, it's just pure luck. If I don't do this, I will get eaten alive by the blinds.

You've thanked members for their responses but from reading your's here I think you're missing one of the better ones (the one I quoted above your's here).
When you're down to the final 20% of players, what are the stack sizes of players on your table?

 

[colepure]

Argg, I kinda skimmed that because I didn't quite understand it. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

A quick search for an elaboration on "open shove" led me to this article: http://pokerterms.com/open-shove.html. This makes a lot of sense to me now .

Sorry about sounding quite noob-ish but I'm really not used to this type of play. Definitely an area for me to focus on.

Thanks again.

 

[duggs]

easiest way to learn is by posting

 

[Arjonius]

Blue, I agree that a great poker player is able to win at any game, but in the OP's case, he seems new to the game/online. So, from your experience, what game would you recommend for a new, micro stakes player?

Since ABC is a winning style at micros and also the most straightforward to learn, beginners should avoid from both turbo and short-handed since they don't fit as well.

As for getting deep enough to see the money but not cashing, the most common scenario is that when you get there, you don't have a fully playable stack, usually because you play too tight in the mid-game and thus don't accumulate enough chips. It's not about how long you last. The bubble and the first person out win exactly the same amount, 0.

I'm not talking about going maniacal, but from the little I know about your game, I'd guess you would benefit from improving your ability to choose / find spots where you can effectively use controlled aggression more / better than you currently do.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Wow, thanks for the responses. This has definitely given me a lot to think about.
I realise that I would have to re-adjust my play to do better in the tournaments that I have been entering, but I really just don't see how. I'm not exaggerating when I say that when these games get down to the final 20% of players, every single hand, 1 or more players will go all-in, pre-flop.
The only strategy I have is to wait for a massive hand and push all-in pre-flop. A few times my AA/KK has been smashed by 7,2 offsuit. This isn't poker, it's just pure luck. If I don't do this, I will get eaten alive by the blinds.

That is tournament play my friend. I am willing to bet that 72o was the guy who shoved leaving you to call (and rightly so). When it gets to the later stages and a guy is sitting there on the button with $40,000 and the blinds are $3k-$6k and no one has opened then he is likely to shove with any two cards (ATC). Because he wants to go heads up against KK? Hardly. He is playing the percentages (and rightly so) that the remaining two players to act will not have a hand good enough to risk it with. Did he think he was dead meat when you flipped over KK? Absolutely! Is he going to to let you know that (especially when he flops 2 pair)? Hardly ever.

Hell I was in a 3 way all in last night. I had 6 blinds in the SB with 8 players left. Middle position limped and it came around to me. I shoved my TJs. Why? I was hoping to execute a dead money grab. There was a good chance BB would not have a hand good enough to risk being crippled (he had about 8 blinds) and that the limper (also about 8 blinds) would bow out too (my read was this person would rarely induce a shove via a limp). I was not wanting to have to go to a flop, but my hand was good enough (in this situation) to go to a flop. Whoops - BB blind had KQs and called. Limper had A4o and called!??!?! Another 4 on the board held up for the limper.

That's just what goes on in later stages when desperation becomes a variable.

 

[sagiPOTM]

hi there, i also play SNG on stars but most 0.10cents with 360players and i got same problem, classic all in fest...First i got some + from them, then its started to be terible coz mass all ins...

And yup, we shuld avoid this SNG, they sux ;S

 

[bullishwwd]

I dont agree that a good player should be able to profit at any micro game, I tried the PS 45 man SNG's for a challenge on here and I sucked, they just dont suit me, as soon as I changed to the 9man and 6 man I started winning.
Everyone is better at one type of poker, NL Limit PLO OHL SNG or MTT and my advice is to find which one you are best at asnd stick to it.
This can be annoying cos I love playing PLO but I just cant win consistantly at it but at SNG's I can so I stick to SNG.

DITTO ... agree with ya.

 

[bullishwwd]

"not giving a rats ass" is definitely a "factor" in poker and in life (IMHO)!

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS WISE STATEMENT: "And actually I do think the amount you care is directly related to the amount you are willing to work - so yeah I gotta say it is a factor of whether or not you will be successful."

 

[daijonmiller]

There are two major key factors in being a winning poker player. Number one is becoming an above average player. It means you need to be able to read others based on betting patterns mainly. This is what you'll learn through experience. Hours and hours must be spent refining your game so that you're making correct calls and understanding the fundamentals of poker. Secondly there is bankroll management. Even with a great player, bankroll management needs to be effectively used in order not to go broke. This is something that can come easy to some, but a struggle for others.
_____________________________
Translation company
Translation services
Translation service

 

[colepure]

When I used to be able to play on Stars, I found that the 45 person SNG's were the best to play. They start at like 25 cents and go up from there. I also made a lot of $ in the DON's and 9 person SNG's.

Graph of SNG's (1600 games, $500 profit):

A question about your graph, reptar - How long did it take to complete 1600 games?

 

[Reptar7]

A question about your graph, reptar - How long did it take to complete 1600 games?

I played somewhere between 6-24, say an average of 12 at a time, so 1600/12= 133 sessions of about an hour a piece, that was spread out over a two to three year period.

 

[colepure]

I played somewhere between 6-24, say an average of 12 at a time, so 1600/12= 133 sessions of about an hour a piece, that was spread out over a two to three year period.

12 at a time?? wow.

 

[WiZZiM]

Hey guys, I've been lurking on this site for a while, and finally decided to sign-up.

I've been playing poker for quite a few years (usually live tournaments and cash games with friends), and I've decided to see how well I do online. I signed up to pokerstars and I've been playing a lot of cheap SNG's - typically 180/90 man games with 50c-1$ buyins. I've been playing really tight, making it typically to the top %20 but never getting any further, because it's just full of crazy players going all-in with terrible cards. I can't seem to do any better because its just an all-in fest.

So my question is, is it possible to actually do consistently well against players like this/in tournaments like this? If so, what is the best approach? and if not, what is typically the best types of games to play online? (for making money)

Haven't read over this thread (just seems like babble sorry), it's almost certain that these players going crazy are probably the better players at the table. The fact you make it near the money so often is pretty much a dead give away that you are not shoving anywhere near enough times... Basically, it's a sin to make it to the money as one of the shortstacks in these games.

Yeah you can make consistent profit... but just like anything in life really, the harder you work at something, the better you will get. The better you are, the more money you can and will make.

Not sure about todays games, but usually regs playing the 180's can average anywhere from $1-$3 per game. And the cool thing about 180's is that you can pretty much play it with a set strategy in place, meaning you can cut down on decision time, thus being able to play many many tables. A lot of the top guys play like 20-30 at a time.

 

[colepure]

Haven't read over this thread (just seems like babble sorry), it's almost certain that these players going crazy are probably the better players at the table. The fact you make it near the money so often is pretty much a dead give away that you are not shoving anywhere near enough times... Basically, it's a sin to make it to the money as one of the shortstacks in these games.

Yeah you can make consistent profit... but just like anything in life really, the harder you work at something, the better you will get. The better you are, the more money you can and will make.

Not sure about todays games, but usually regs playing the 180's can average anywhere from $1-$3 per game. And the cool thing about 180's is that you can pretty much play it with a set strategy in place, meaning you can cut down on decision time, thus being able to play many many tables. A lot of the top guys play like 20-30 at a time.

Yeah, I have learnt a lot from this thread so far, and I have been doing a LOT better at these tournaments - I have placed in 1st twice, and a bunch of times from 2nd - 6th place (I'm only playing 1 game at a time, so this is quite often). With that being said, since I have been taking bigger risks, I've also been taken out quite early in these tournaments too, however my overall ROI is much higher.

At the moment, I'm just working on fine-tuning my strategy so I can be a bit more consistent, and like you said - playing multiple games at once.

One thing I wanted to ask though, if you're playing on so many tables at once, how can you focus on things like stats/play style/tendancies of other players? or do the regulars just ignore this aspect of the game?

 

[WiZZiM]

Yeah, I have learnt a lot from this thread so far, and I have been doing a LOT better at these tournaments - I have placed in 1st twice, and a bunch of times from 2nd - 6th place (I'm only playing 1 game at a time, so this is quite often). With that being said, since I have been taking bigger risks, I've also been taken out quite early in these tournaments too, however my overall ROI is much higher.

At the moment, I'm just working on fine-tuning my strategy so I can be a bit more consistent, and like you said - playing multiple games at once.

One thing I wanted to ask though, if you're playing on so many tables at once, how can you focus on things like stats/play style/tendancies of other players? or do the regulars just ignore this aspect of the game?

If you want to play many tables at once profitably, you probably need to invest in a HUD. Be careful though, if you are planning to play recreationally, it's a waste of money.

If you plan to make some real cash, it's pretty much essential these days. Not only for the play of others, but your own leaks (or areas you need to improve).

While you are in the lower levels, playing few tables, i wouldn't bother getting one. Just mark players down in a few, simple categories, then expand those categories later when you get better. When you start to build your skills you will be able to add tables slowly. After a while, a HUD becomes really handy. Just remember this is all a slow process and there's no point in rushing anything. It could be a year or two before you are playing even 6-10 tables profitably so these things won't happen overnight. It just depends how much work you put in, and your overall intelligence usually helps a lot ;D.

 

[Foxhound3857]

How do you make money against highly skilled micro grinders that like to set traps, blind-steal, make reads and bluff, etc, as opposed to spewfish that shove with KQ, A9, 44, etc?

 

[WiZZiM]

play outside the box. If you know what they are likely thinking, then it's pretty easy to get inside their heads. And most micro grinders are not highly skilled, they usually just have a set strategy in place which is usually pretty easy to work out/exploit.

 

[Ezekiel162]

How do you make money against highly skilled micro grinders that like to set traps, blind-steal, make reads and bluff, etc, as opposed to spewfish that shove with KQ, A9, 44, etc?

play outside the box. If you know what they are likely thinking, then it's pretty easy to get inside their heads. And most micro grinders are not highly skilled, they usually just have a set strategy in place which is usually pretty easy to work out/exploit.

I get what FoxHound is saying though... at micro's when you try to apply "play your best cards to the best of your ability" against fish as opposed to "play the player's mind" against sharks type thinking, it's not always easy to differentiate the two until you run into some uneasy situations because your not at a table of fairly to skilled level players but in a sort of "melting pot" of sharks, fish, notorious bluffers, etc...

I'll give a quick situation... Recently I was at a table with a "Maniac" sitting directly to my left. Now this was not a maniac in the strictest sense of that they shoved all the time because they didn't. They were making standard c-bets/raises/etc... Their VPIP was like 80+ with an AF of like 14. Player's that were figuring (including me...) "Oh what a fish" she stacked up like bodies. Had me playing like a Nit...Hell, I was scared to play AA(just kidding..) but I felt somehow she knew precisely how to read each and everyone one of us... It was uncanny...

Another situation with what should have been the table image of a TAG(w/ high WSD$) I got bluffed out of a pot on a umatched flop holding an AKo by some meathead, who as of yet had never entered the pot, was IP, raised the pot potsized only to reveal Q3o. He replied "Queen high" Fair 2 to say this put me on-tilt for the rest of the game...

I laugh at this sh*t and them now as I lost those 2 games and won the next 13 having learned 2 more valuable lessons in the process... Sometimes the player stats don't reveal as much as I would want because by the time you get in enough hands for it to be useful the game is pretty much over...

 

[Aldito]

How do you make money against highly skilled micro grinders that like to set traps, blind-steal, make reads and bluff, etc, as opposed to spewfish that shove with KQ, A9, 44, etc?

This is completely standard late game SNG strategy.

 

[Ezekiel162]

This is completely standard late game SNG strategy.

Makes sense. Forgot we were talking about 180/90 mans where you'd be trying to steal to maintain/double stacks against players tightening due to high blinds...

 

[Foxhound3857]

This is completely standard late game SNG strategy.

I'm talking about 9-mans, and mostly the early stages.

 

[Big_Rudy]

How do you make money against highly skilled micro grinders that like to set traps, blind-steal, make reads and bluff, etc, as opposed to spewfish that shove with KQ, A9, 44, etc?

I would dispute that they are "highly skilled" if they are playing like this in the early stages of a 9-man SnG. Blind stealing, bluffing in the early stages? Really? Blinds aren't worth stealing yet and usually someone will look-up your bluffs early. Solid ABC poker early unless you have some super reads then MAYBE mix-in a little exploitative stuff. Save all the fancy stuff for deeper in the SnG. Conserve chips early.

 

[Johniblayze]

Play 45 man sngs. They are extremely profitable. If you get good at them and play in volume you can beat them with very little variance. Look up boku challenge on stars. This is the first time ive ever posted my sharkscope online. Before BF i was running with a 25% ROI on the $10 45 mans at stars. I would 25-30 table when I played with help from TableNinja.

This is how you crush these games and turn $10 into $10,000 in 14 days.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f5IUP-ELzA

 

[Aldito]

Play 45 man sngs. They are extremely profitable. If you get good at them and play in volume you can beat them with very little variance. Look up Boku challenge on stars. This is the first time ive ever posted my sharkscope online. Before BF i was running with a 25% ROI on the $10 45 mans at stars. I would 25-30 table when I played with help from TableNinja.

This is how you crush these games and turn $10 into $10,000 in 14 days.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f5IUP-ELzA

Mirin' graph

 

[arandom53]

I agree with most of these satements it sounds like you need to re-evaluate your open shove hands and early to mid stage game.Some advice I gave my roommate when he asked why I could cash in 1 out of every 10 or so free rolls: The best strategy is playing to win not to cash.In other word you will find it easier to win if you arent afraid to lose.(he didnt listen to me and still has yet to cash in a FR{6mnths ago is when we had this convo})The only other advice I have is that with these small buyin medium entry sngs or mtts is that you have to give it more time to see a profit(not sure how many you have played in)so you will need to adjust how you look at your roll normally I like to have 20+buy-ins for sngs and mtts but for the smaller ones I would want atleast 50-100 buy-ins just so I can ride out the variance.Pertinent question what is the payout for first and the last paying spots(this will tell you if you should be able to make a profit)take whatever first is and /buy buy-in if you cant make atleast 10+buy-ins for first then I wouldnt play..