Legitimate thinking?

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ssbn743

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This hand occurred online at Lock in a $10 NL hold ‘em $750 GTD tournament.

Blinds are $800 and $400 with a $75 ante, there are 21 players left and the bubble burst at 27.

I have $10500 giving me an effective M value of a little over 5 and am in the cutoff seat and shorthanded with only 7 players at the table. The dealer button has a $55K stack and the two blinds are comparable to my own stack; about $10K.

UTG moves all-in for $6500, it's folded to me, and I have :kh4: :10h4:

My thinking is that UTG should be shoving ATC here so I move all-in taking my K 10 against his range; if it were folded to me I would shove this hand here and I think I’m largely ahead of ATC. Was this legitimate poker thinking or am I a jackass? I’ll post the results later.
 
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doomasiggy

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you got stats?

EDIT: sorry, misread stacks. What were sb/bb stack sizes, and how nitty were they?
 
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ScottieDuncan

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Pretty good thinking to me. He probably was trying to buy it.
 
RiverMeTimbers

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Pretty good thinking to me. He probably was trying to buy it.

I agree.. UTG shoved either because he was looking for any two cards.. which could be comparable to your KT, or he was trying to buy it.

I'm curious to see the results
 
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ssbn743

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you got stats?

EDIT: sorry, misread stacks. What were sb/bb stack sizes, and how nitty were they?

It’s hard for me to say how nitty they were – lots of weak play was going on and sometimes it can be hard to tell if they’re nitty or just don’t know what they hell they’re doing! For example, from UTG with 4-5M stacks they min raise and fold! So I guess, pretty nitty.

Also after looking at the hand history I did get some of the details wrong – not that it had much effect on the situation but here’s how it went down verbatim – with the exception everything after my action.

Hand#3219CDB473001517 - $1,250 GTD T13481075 -- TICKETCASH -- $10 + $1 -- 9 Max -- Table 32 -- 75/400/800 NL Hold'em -- 2013/01/27 - 15:25:24
Dealer: Seat 2

Seat 1: SubPoker (10,578 in chips)
Seat 2: mikeally22 (30,946 in chips)
Seat 3: dubl_ace_420 (7,834 in chips)
Seat 4: otez361 (7,377 in chips)
Seat 7: bostttt (7,130 in chips)
Seat 9: mazurfin (51,180 in chips)
Seat 10: WileyWeas (24,116 in chips)

SubPoker: posts ante of 75
mikeally22: posts ante of 75
dubl_ace_420: posts ante of 75
otez361: posts ante of 75
bostttt: posts ante of 75
mazurfin: posts ante of 75
WileyWeas: posts ante of 75
dubl_ace_420: posts small blind 400
otez361: posts big blind 800

Dealt to SubPoker [Th,Kh]
bostttt: is all in 7,055
mazurfin: folds
WileyWeas: folds
SubPoker: is all in 10,503
 
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IntenseHeat

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I have to agree with the people who agree with me about agreeing with you. I think your reasoning is pretty sound here and I like K-10 suited in this spot. I'm curious as to what the button did behind you. I'm sure the blinds are folding, and even though the button should be getting out of the way, big stacks sometimes use the size of their stack as justification to make some crazy calls.
 
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legit move most of the time IMO....but tight players with patience = small stack they dont mind getting blinded until they are comfortable with a hand, who knows if that guys been waiting for the right hand, theoretically he could of folded and seen another free round and still had 5300 to double. So i would have to put him on a pp pair or a10 or better. Another ten minutes for you could add up to a better pay out spot and it seems like your putting in a lot voluntarily. there are still a lot of hand that beet yours and even if your in front your pretty much making the next hand your last if you lose.
 
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oh yeah and chip monger is behind you? ...tough spot i think id fold....without any reads but what do i know i play fwee wolls :p
 
Tropwen

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I like the move although I would be sweating the button calling as well even though he shouldn't be calling with trash if he does call I'd think I was behind but ya that's where u hope to not get unlucky
 
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legit move most of the time IMO....but tight players with patience = small stack they dont mind getting blinded until they are comfortable with a hand, who knows if that guys been waiting for the right hand, theoretically he could of folded and seen another free round and still had 5300 to double. So i would have to put him on a pp pair or a10 or better. Another ten minutes for you could add up to a better pay out spot and it seems like your putting in a lot voluntarily. there are still a lot of hand that beet yours and even if your in front your pretty much making the next hand your last if you lose.

Well I mean that’s the whole argument isn’t it?

Does he know he has a 4M stack and needs to shove ATC here? Or is he a moron and think he can make it through one more pass of the blinds? Did he get lucky and catch a hand in the perfect spot? Is K 10 good against his range?

Those are the questions that I had to answer – and based on his play (although I had just recently, 15 hands, been moved to that table) I figured he knew he needed to shove ATC. That’s how I came to the decision to stake my tourney life on K 10….and I’m not saying it was right…just wondering what the consensus is.
 
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Moron or not your trny life is at stake. If hes utg then...when are the blinds raising?.... he could have better pot odds pushing with the next round of blinds in his position( just more food for thought). i don't think there is a correct answer, the only one would be based on how you think his play is. Generally k10 sooted 7 handed statistically is a good play.....i believe. if you get beat, well that's poker.
 
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since im not a fan of the Pre-flop all in i would probably fold. I havent seen the result but did he have 44? LOL And Win
 
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So if he pretty much needed to shove in his spot, the question is should you call in yours? statiscally, I have to to say yes, the reason i say fold is simply because when it gets right down to it....its about staying alive till an opportunity arises(like kk) or great pot odds or....until your forced to make a move. anything else would be gambling :D
 
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doomasiggy

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So if he pretty much needed to shove in his spot, the question is should you call in yours? statiscally, I have to to say yes, the reason i say fold is simply because when it gets right down to it....its about staying alive till an opportunity arises(like kk) or great pot odds or....until your forced to make a move. anything else would be gambling :D

yeah this kind of thinking is bad.

We're deff ahead of the original raisers range, we're getting called by one of the blinds like, 12% of the time? So yeah, rejamming is fine.
 
LuckyBundy13

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You might be giving the big stack odds to call if you re-shove. It's only going to cost BB 4K more on top of the original all in? I'd call if I was the BB w/ pretty much a wide range. Of course there's the possibility that someone shoves after you in which case the BB won't have to call cause you're toast.

I would fold to the opener cause I'm a nit.
 
Poker Orifice

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"It depends" on our read of villain (ie. you were there for 2rds., did villain not opt to gii in other spots where we'd assume he should be 'if' he knows what he's doing? < this could give us an idea of if he is folding down waiting for something decent (< which you'll see often in MTT's where effective stacks aren't very deep, & once you've basically just gottten ITM because many are jamming wide here after the bubble but others aren't). Also, along same lines, is villain jamming ATC (after folding 2rds.) thinkin' it'll actually get through?

I'd probably fold too & look for what I'd think might be a better spot (but I wasn't at the table so I can't say I would actually do this)
 
Poker Orifice

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since im not a fan of the Pre-flop all in i would probably fold. I havent seen the result but did he have 44? LOL And Win
Honestly this ^ is just a stupid remark said completely out of context (the goofy '44' comment which is relating to another thread, which was an ENTIRELY different situation > late levels of a satellite). For starters, one situation is a satellite with a flat payout structure, the other is a tournament which has just previously popped the bubble & where it's likely that effective stacks are relatively short (ie. lots of shove stacks & resteal-sized-shove stacks).

As far as not being a fan of the 'pre-flop' allin, maybe you can tell us what you'd do in spots while sitting on 8-12bb's?
Do you raise/fold to a shove?
Do you limp/fold to a raise?
Do you 'call' a raise pre while sitting on 8-12bb's & fold if you 'miss the flop'?
Do you limp/call a raise while out of position? (what do you do on the flop?... if you miss do you 'check/fold' flop & keep your 6-9bb's remaining stack? OR do you lead into raiser 'to see where you're at'.. & then fold with 3-5bb's in your stack).
When do you get it in preflop? (or do you?).
 
bz54321

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I have to agree with the people who agree with me about agreeing with you.

For some reason I really like this sentence. So I am going to agree with whatever IntenseHeat agreed to when he agreed with you.
 
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ibsiegel

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Honestly this ^ is just a stupid remark said completely out of context (the goofy '44' comment which is relating to another thread, which was an ENTIRELY different situation > late levels of a satellite). For starters, one situation is a satellite with a flat payout structure, the other is a tournament which has just previously popped the bubble & where it's likely that effective stacks are relatively short (ie. lots of shove stacks & resteal-sized-shove stacks).

As far as not being a fan of the 'pre-flop' allin, maybe you can tell us what you'd do in spots while sitting on 8-12bb's?
Do you raise/fold to a shove?
Do you limp/fold to a raise?
Do you 'call' a raise pre while sitting on 8-12bb's & fold if you 'miss the flop'?
Do you limp/call a raise while out of position? (what do you do on the flop?... if you miss do you 'check/fold' flop & keep your 6-9bb's remaining stack? OR do you lead into raiser 'to see where you're at'.. & then fold with 3-5bb's in your stack).
When do you get it in preflop? (or do you?).[/quote

i typically play the player and not a set stratedgy


this is why i hate pre-flop all in.................. its a lottery
I am riveraise72
Hand#3220CDD349001585 - $1,000 Bankroll Freeroll Satellite T13488969 -- FREEROLL -- $0 + $0 -- 10 Max -- Table 29 -- 60/300/600 NL Hold'em -- 2013/01/28 - 10:32:59
Dealer: Seat 7
Seat 1: Crazd1 (6,634 in chips)
Seat 2: ChoMoJoe!! (5,084 in chips)
Seat 3: riveraise12 (33,115 in chips)
Seat 5: kgs77 (40,042 in chips)
Seat 6: missimarie (4,550 in chips)
Seat 7: forair (3,234 in chips)
Seat 9: AcesBamBam (9,498 in chips)
Seat 10: d4care (21,277 in chips)
Crazd1: posts ante of 60
ChoMoJoe!!: posts ante of 60
riveraise12: posts ante of 60
kgs77: posts ante of 60
missimarie: posts ante of 60
forair: posts ante of 60
AcesBamBam: posts ante of 60
d4care: posts ante of 60
AcesBamBam: posts small blind 300
d4care: posts big blind 600
Dealt to riveraise12 [Ks,Kh]
Crazd1: folds
ChoMoJoe!!: raises to 1,590
riveraise12: raises to 6,150
kgs77: is all in 39,982
missimarie: folds
forair: folds
AcesBamBam: folds
d4care: folds
ChoMoJoe!!: folds
riveraise12: is all in 26,905
kgs77: returns uncalled bet 6,927
riveraise12: shows [Ks Kh]
kgs77: shows [Qc Qs]
*** FLOP *** [4h,2c,2h]
*** TURN *** Q♥
*** RIVER *** 8♥
***SHOW DOWN***
ChoMoJoe!! chats: lmao had 1010
kgs77 wins 69,080 with Full House Queens full of deuces
riveraise12 finished 34 out of 333 players.
 
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ssbn743

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Ok, so here are the results:

So after I moved all in with :kh4: :10h4: the button calls and both of the blinds fold.

UTG shows :8c4: :8h4: and the button shows :9d4: :9s4:

The button spikes a set of nines, no K or 10 or any straight cards hit the board and I left in 20th place for small cash.

Now in my original post I stated the button had $55K but after looking at the hand history he had a little less than $31K which makes his call even worse IMO. He’s got a big relative stack but it’s not really big, he has less than 20M, calling and losing would all but cripple him especially since blinds would be going up soon – I can’t believe he called, he was sure to facing 4 over cards at best.

However, his action didn’t matter as far as I was concerned anyway because I would have been crippled by the eights as it stands. That said, I still like this spot, and based on how UTG had been playing I think he would have shoved ATC and just happened to catch a made hand – which still lost as it turns out.

Hand#3219CDB473001517 - $1,250 GTD T13481075 -- TICKETCASH -- $10 + $1 -- 9 Max -- Table 32 -- 75/400/800 NL Hold'em -- 2013/01/27 - 15:25:24
Dealer: Seat 2

Seat 1: SubPoker (10,578 in chips)
Seat 2: mikeally22 (30,946 in chips)
Seat 3: dubl_ace_420 (7,834 in chips)
Seat 4: otez361 (7,377 in chips)
Seat 7: bostttt (7,130 in chips)
Seat 9: mazurfin (51,180 in chips)
Seat 10: WileyWeas (24,116 in chips)

SubPoker: posts ante of 75
mikeally22: posts ante of 75
dubl_ace_420: posts ante of 75
otez361: posts ante of 75
bostttt: posts ante of 75
mazurfin: posts ante of 75
WileyWeas: posts ante of 75
dubl_ace_420: posts small blind 400
otez361: posts big blind 800

Dealt to SubPoker [Th,Kh]
bostttt: is all in 7,055
mazurfin: folds
WileyWeas: folds
SubPoker: is all in 10,503
mikeally22: calls 10,503
dubl_ace_420: folds
otez361: folds

SubPoker: shows [Th Kh]
mikeally22: shows [9d 9s]
bostttt: shows [8c 8h]

*** FLOP *** [9c,2h,7s]
*** TURN *** [4h]
*** RIVER *** [5c]

***SHOW DOWN***
mikeally22 wins 6,896 with Three of a Kind Nines
***SHOW DOWN***
mikeally22 wins 22,890 with Three of a Kind Nines
SubPoker finished 20 out of 191 players.

Lesson learned I guess – but I still don’t have huge problem with this, I think I win there enough times to make it +EV; thoughts?
 
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ssbn743

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Honestly this ^ is just a stupid remark said completely out of context (the goofy '44' comment which is relating to another thread, which was an ENTIRELY different situation > late levels of a satellite). For starters, one situation is a satellite with a flat payout structure, the other is a tournament which has just previously popped the bubble & where it's likely that effective stacks are relatively short (ie. lots of shove stacks & resteal-sized-shove stacks).

As far as not being a fan of the 'pre-flop' allin, maybe you can tell us what you'd do in spots while sitting on 8-12bb's?
Do you raise/fold to a shove?
Do you limp/fold to a raise?
Do you 'call' a raise pre while sitting on 8-12bb's & fold if you 'miss the flop'?
Do you limp/call a raise while out of position? (what do you do on the flop?... if you miss do you 'check/fold' flop & keep your 6-9bb's remaining stack? OR do you lead into raiser 'to see where you're at'.. & then fold with 3-5bb's in your stack).
When do you get it in preflop? (or do you?).[/quote

i typically play the player and not a set stratedgy


this is why i hate pre-flop all in.................. its a lottery
I am riveraise72
Hand#3220CDD349001585 - $1,000 Bankroll Freeroll Satellite T13488969 -- FREEROLL -- $0 + $0 -- 10 Max -- Table 29 -- 60/300/600 NL Hold'em -- 2013/01/28 - 10:32:59
Dealer: Seat 7
Seat 1: Crazd1 (6,634 in chips)
Seat 2: ChoMoJoe!! (5,084 in chips)
Seat 3: riveraise12 (33,115 in chips)
Seat 5: kgs77 (40,042 in chips)
Seat 6: missimarie (4,550 in chips)
Seat 7: forair (3,234 in chips)
Seat 9: AcesBamBam (9,498 in chips)
Seat 10: d4care (21,277 in chips)
Crazd1: posts ante of 60
ChoMoJoe!!: posts ante of 60
riveraise12: posts ante of 60
kgs77: posts ante of 60
missimarie: posts ante of 60
forair: posts ante of 60
AcesBamBam: posts ante of 60
d4care: posts ante of 60
AcesBamBam: posts small blind 300
d4care: posts big blind 600
Dealt to riveraise12 [Ks,Kh]
Crazd1: folds
ChoMoJoe!!: raises to 1,590
riveraise12: raises to 6,150
kgs77: is all in 39,982
missimarie: folds
forair: folds
AcesBamBam: folds
d4care: folds
ChoMoJoe!!: folds
riveraise12: is all in 26,905
kgs77: returns uncalled bet 6,927
riveraise12: shows [Ks Kh]
kgs77: shows [Qc Qs]
*** FLOP *** [4h,2c,2h]
*** TURN *** Q♥
*** RIVER *** 8♥
***SHOW DOWN***
ChoMoJoe!! chats: lmao had 1010
kgs77 wins 69,080 with Full House Queens full of deuces
riveraise12 finished 34 out of 333 players.

Dude, what’s problem here? You lost but you got them in good – what’s all this lottery talk?

It’s not making much, if any, sense! If you’ve never been beat like this you haven’t been playing very long! And it’s a Freeroll; you knew it was a lottery from the start!

“i typically play the player and not a set stratedgy” – you

So 3-betting and calling off all your chips is playing the player?
 
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ibsiegel

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Dude, what’s problem here? You lost but you got them in good – what’s all this lottery talk?

It’s not making much, if any, sense! If you’ve never been beat like this you haven’t been playing very long! And it’s a Freeroll; you knew it was a lottery from the start!

“i typically play the player and not a set stratedgy” – you

So 3-betting and calling off all your chips is playing the player?

yea he had gone all in with junk like 3 times and i thought he was doing the same trying to buy the pot. Free roll or not we down to the nitty gritty. Yea its poker it happens i just think it happens more than people want to admit and i should have just folded it but dam thats a hard fold.

no i would probably do the same thing next time. LOL sometimes i hate to love poker or is it poker loves to hate me? LOL
 
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ssbn743

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yea he had gone all in with junk like 3 times and i thought he was doing the same trying to buy the pot. Free roll or not we down to the nitty gritty. Yea its poker it happens i just think it happens more than people want to admit and i should have just folded it but dam thats a hard fold.

no i would probably do the same thing next time. LOL sometimes i hate to love poker or is it poker loves to hate me? LOL

C’mon Man – How many 4-bet all-in have you seen that are bluffs? I’d be surprised if I have ever 4-bet all-in with air!

I just don’t know what you’re saying here – it doesn’t happen more often or less often – it happens roughly 16% of the time – it’s not up to interpretation or gut feelings or what you or I are willing to “admit”.

But whatever, we’re getting off topic here – this thread is about my decision making process, not KK versus QQ in a freeroll.
 
Poker Orifice

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Honestly this ^ is just a stupid remark said completely out of context (the goofy '44' comment which is relating to another thread, which was an ENTIRELY different situation > late levels of a satellite). For starters, one situation is a satellite with a flat payout structure, the other is a tournament which has just previously popped the bubble & where it's likely that effective stacks are relatively short (ie. lots of shove stacks & resteal-sized-shove stacks).

As far as not being a fan of the 'pre-flop' allin, maybe you can tell us what you'd do in spots while sitting on 8-12bb's?
Do you raise/fold to a shove?
Do you limp/fold to a raise?
Do you 'call' a raise pre while sitting on 8-12bb's & fold if you 'miss the flop'?
Do you limp/call a raise while out of position? (what do you do on the flop?... if you miss do you 'check/fold' flop & keep your 6-9bb's remaining stack? OR do you lead into raiser 'to see where you're at'.. & then fold with 3-5bb's in your stack).
When do you get it in preflop? (or do you?).[/quote

i typically play the player and not a set stratedgy


this is why i hate pre-flop all in.................. its a lottery
I am riveraise72
Hand#3220CDD349001585 - $1,000 Bankroll Freeroll Satellite T13488969 -- FREEROLL -- $0 + $0 -- 10 Max -- Table 29 -- 60/300/600 NL Hold'em -- 2013/01/28 - 10:32:59
Dealer: Seat 7
Seat 1: Crazd1 (6,634 in chips)
Seat 2: ChoMoJoe!! (5,084 in chips)
Seat 3: riveraise12 (33,115 in chips)
Seat 5: kgs77 (40,042 in chips)
Seat 6: missimarie (4,550 in chips)
Seat 7: forair (3,234 in chips)
Seat 9: AcesBamBam (9,498 in chips)
Seat 10: d4care (21,277 in chips)
Crazd1: posts ante of 60
ChoMoJoe!!: posts ante of 60
riveraise12: posts ante of 60
kgs77: posts ante of 60
missimarie: posts ante of 60
forair: posts ante of 60
AcesBamBam: posts ante of 60
d4care: posts ante of 60
AcesBamBam: posts small blind 300
d4care: posts big blind 600
Dealt to riveraise12 [Ks,Kh]
Crazd1: folds
ChoMoJoe!!: raises to 1,590
riveraise12: raises to 6,150
kgs77: is all in 39,982
missimarie: folds
forair: folds
AcesBamBam: folds
d4care: folds
ChoMoJoe!!: folds
riveraise12: is all in 26,905
kgs77: returns uncalled bet 6,927
riveraise12: shows [Ks Kh]
kgs77: shows [Qc Qs]
*** FLOP *** [4h,2c,2h]
*** TURN *** Q♥
*** RIVER *** 8♥
***SHOW DOWN***
ChoMoJoe!! chats: lmao had 1010
kgs77 wins 69,080 with Full House Queens full of deuces
riveraise12 finished 34 out of 333 players.
A few things come to mind:
a) can you see a slight difference in this hand you've posted & the one you were referring to with your comment about the '44'? (hint > there's a HUGE difference!)
b) it's a freeroll ffs
c) so you'd think folding the KK would be better (because it lost)? You've managed to have another player committ pre as an 80/20 favourite! (what more would you want?)
d) from reading this post (your answer to my questions I guess?) it is clear you really don't know what you're talking about. Hey that's okay. It's what the forum can be for (to learn how to play).
 
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ibsiegel

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A few things come to mind:
a) can you see a slight difference in this hand you've posted & the one you were referring to with your comment about the '44'? (hint > there's a HUGE difference!)

no the 44 hand was in the same position. 34 people left where 7 get into the 1k tourney that has only entry limit of 220 people. The difference was i was in 3rd when i did that.

b) it's a freeroll ffs
what is ff's

c) so you'd think folding the KK would be better (because it lost)? You've managed to have another player committ pre as an 80/20 favourite! (what more would you want?)

if you read on you would have read that i would probably play it that same way again

d) from reading this post (your answer to my questions I guess?) it is clear you really don't know what you're talking about. Hey that's okay. It's what the forum can be for (to learn how to play).

Just because i dont like preflop all-ins doesnt mean i cant play nor does it mean i dont know what im talking about ...........

poker isnt a science it is action and reaction and the more you play a certain way the more you are easily read. which means eventually the more you will lose. So to say you should play X way every time is dumb and will cost you in the long run because you become a book that any one can read. I dont disagree with alot of what you have said but it still doesnt make me want to shove to steal blinds i dont agree with that as a standard play i think there is a time and place for it but its not going to work 50% of the time and your left with no chips to battle back the 50% of the time it does work will probably build you up eneough for some one to finally call and crush you. Yea he got lucky he built up and i went to crush him and Lost so be it, but as you said i should have won but i didnt and i went from 3rd to 0 in nothing flat. That is why i dont like that move i will probably make it again but i dont like it as a standard play.
 
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