Is keeping short-stack alive to bully middle stacks part of collusion?

[PoKeRFoRNiA]

In a typical payout game, with first place getting the lions share, you can use the short stack to bully other players.

Harrington on Hold'Em Volume II: The Endgame
Page 298-301, Example 9
If you haven't read this book yet, buy it. It practically pays for itself.

Summary: You are the big stack (2.5x anybody at the table), there are 4 players left, and one has a been nursing a tiny stack and will be out soon which will move everybody up significantly in pay. You get involved with a middle stack and make what would normally be a dangerous bluff, but because the middle stack doesn't want to go out before the tiny stack he folds.

This is a good situation, so I would not be eager to knock out the has-no-hope-stack, and would expect myself to fold a wide range of hands in my SB to his BB.

Your situation is completely different though. You are not playing for a highly inflated first place payout. In your case, especially with the sit-out, you want the safest route to the win, which is eliminating the sitting shorty. If the other guy is going to keeps throwing chips, feh. He isn't making the unofficial cooperation play with you but getting mad and fighting back is far more risky, making it a route to take.

I'm inspired to start reading poker books now. TY SP. I learn this play through experience. Reading books can speed up the process and make me aware ahead of time of scenarios I can be faced with and how to approach them. I've only read super system I/II and Winning Low LImit Holdem. I gotta start reading more as those aren't enough.

 

[Zorba]

My real reason for acting like a jackass was to target the idiot who shoved with 97o against my blind because I was offended. I wanted to show him who's the boss and he's under my mercy. It was no intention to help out the sitout. My reason for folding to sitout was "aaw, i don't wanna end the fun. i wanna keep him alive so i can punk this idiot around all day and show him why he shouldn't have messed with me or play stupid".

This made me LMAO, great strategy that.

 

[playerk7]

you have to remember in sattelites people play alot diffrently because they alwyas have another chance to play in another one, so with that in mind try to have a better hand in a flop then going into it hten a normal sng

 

[BEEFMADRAS]

If the player next to me decides to sit out to try to make the money/next table, im deffo taking his/her chips. At that stage the blinds are quite big so it wont take long for them to be blinded out. Its a game of aggression aswell as stealing and being from liverpool, I know how to steal. Only joking.

 

[billyth3kid]

the call with jj wasnt the smartest move... once your pretty much gaurenteed in, just take the seat... i stand up and walk away from the tourny when im gaurenteed in a seat... but thats not collusion.. i do that in 9 seat sit n gos every time when im big stack.. fold to the fourth place guy and bully the other two.. its a strategy not collusion

 

[Poker Orifice]

I've come across situations more than once where some player on a table makes the situation personal & plays like a total dickwad (like you in this spot imo).
Reference I've often heard in regards to reasoning behind this is... some geek who was picked on in school & now seeks anonymous vengeneance upon the world from behind their puter screen.

There's a difference between keeping a shortstack alive to ensure a first place victory in a typical payout (50/30/20), but to just do so to phuck with one of the players on the bubble of a satellite.... I think it's just pretty much immature (but obv some of the bs you will need to put up with while playing online poker).

I'm surprised to see that you actually posted about it.

 

[RyanB88]

I agree with Tomh, terrible call. The last guy that hero called with JJ against my AQ shove in a live satellite ended up third and didn't get anything. I don't think there was anything you did to collude...Your ego doesn't count as a second party that you would be colluding with. I think you need to start playing poker for profit, rather than egotistical gain. The guy just probably started shoving to get it overwith and get the 'sit out' player gone, but it seems your ego didn't want to let him be in control of getting it overwith. Poker is not personal, it's business/entertainment.

 

[The_Pup]

I am pleased for you that it worked out well in the end, Pokerlovesme. As you have probably figured the thing to learn from this is you should never play a hand in a manner to teach an arsehole a lesson. Always play the most +EV poker you can.

 

[PoKeRFoRNiA]

The guy just probably started shoving to get it overwith and get the 'sit out' player gone, but it seems your ego didn't want to let him be in control of getting it overwith. Poker is not personal, it's business/entertainment.

If the purpose was to blind out the sitout, what's the reason for shoving against my blind with 97o and risk 5k of his 7k at risk when sitout is in the button with no chips at stake? If I had a healthy chipstack, I would've NEVER play stupid and shove 7k into a player with 5k just to steal 1 blind when that person can cripple me down to 2k while there's a sitout.

If the guy folded to my blind but raise on sitout's blind, I would even consider folding pocket Aces and let him blind out the sitout as quickly as possible. But that wasn't the case.

I've come across situations more than once where some player on a table makes the situation personal & plays like a total dickwad (like you in this spot imo).

So let's get this straightened out. Me pushing the guy around with his blinds while I have a chip lead is considered a dickwad while him pushing me around with 97o against my blinds when he had a chiplead and then crying in a different language on the chatbox is not? Yeah that makes REAL sense. LMAO.

Many KEEN poker players would quickly fold to my blind and then either raise sitout's blind or fold for me to steal sitout's blind. In that situation, I would quickly blind out the sitout as possible and play smart poker of having silent consent of blinding out the sitout. In that case, I would even fold Kings and Aces. Just letting you know, if middle stacker was sitout and short-stacker was active but folds to my blind, I would spare the short-stacker by folding to his blind and blind out the middle stack and do it as quickly as possible.

This wasn't even wsop MAIN EVENT Satellite, FTOPS satellite, or any big satellite. This was a stupid donk-n-go microstake satellite sng. Pfft, Like I would fear over losing few quarters and dollars. lmao. I was still even-money even if i lost.

 

[godoy]

Well I don't think the question is if this is right based on principals or moral, the question is if it's collusion which is not, you had your reasons to do that, I don't think that anybody here NEVER got any emotional while playing poker, of course it wasn't the best way to guarantee that you wuold get the seat, and the call with jj was terrible ugly unless you could be sure that the villain didn't have any card over it, but you take the risk and got it, congrats to you
=)

 

[WiZZiM]

This thread makes my eyes bleed.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Emotion & ego I'm pretty sure are my two biggest leaks & something I'm always working on. Thanks for the reminder in this thread.

 

[cheddachris]

even if he does report you they will take a look at your player history and since I'm assuming you have no money transfers or games with the other player it will obviously not be collusion, only time anybody i know got in trouble for it was when they were obviously feeding eachother and they played in the same games every time... dead give away, they both got banned

 

[Poker Orifice]

only time anybody i know got in trouble for it was when they were obviously feeding eachother and they played in the same games every time... dead give away, they both got banned

^ guilty by association imo (lol)

 

[JEP712]

Honestly I would of just folded the Jacks and let the blinds eliminate the sit-out.

 

[IcyBlueAce]

I've come across situations more than once where some player on a table makes the situation personal & plays like a total dickwad (like you in this spot imo).
Reference I've often heard in regards to reasoning behind this is... some geek who was picked on in school & now seeks anonymous vengeneance upon the world from behind their puter screen.

There's a difference between keeping a shortstack alive to ensure a first place victory in a typical payout (50/30/20), but to just do so to phuck with one of the players on the bubble of a satellite.... I think it's just pretty much immature (but obv some of the bs you will need to put up with while playing online poker).

I'm surprised to see that you actually posted about it.

I'm surprised to see you even posted this imput.