How to go that "extra mile" in larger MTT tournaments? vp$ = higher??

[loopmeister]

It's also amazing how the antes widen your shoving range. Given average (tightish) players, 72o is a profitable shove from LP. But you've got to be *sure* that no-one still to act would call with as much as KQo for instance.

This is what SnGWiz considers an 'average' player given your shove from LP. Calling range:

99+ AQ+ AJs+

44+ A7s+ A6+, KQs (BB)

 

[RamdeeBen]

I became a cropper last night in around 17 SnG MTT's. Hell, I was shoving my 10 BB's with A,K/ A,Q middle pairs etc and getting outdone by lower Aces. I think I bubbled a fair few and just outside the bubble with some others. So frustrating, thankfully the last tournament in the 90man $2.00 I took second for $33.00 so was up slightly at the end of the session. Was disappointed as I had a chance to cash in 5 with decent scores but only ended up cashing two final tables.. I had a few good runs and was quite deep in a few but got very unlucky and busted much sooner than I should of.This brings me back to the 10BB rule.

A,K/A,Q/A,J/A,10 with 12BB/s left in EP, what to do? Say for example 100/150 I sat there pondering as this happened a couple of times ( I ended up shipping to a dissapointing result) However I wondered what was best way to play this? A standard min raise or 3xBB? If so I'm putting in like 25% of my stack hoping to hit the flop - if not then I'm stuck depending on how many callers. A standard C-BET seems a waste doesn't it? If I'm called then I'm really stuck..so do I either

A: Ship it PF
B: Ship the flop regardless
C:??

 

[Pascal-lf]

So even if you fall a little behind, ok. When you hit around 1/2 of the average value, now you are "at risk". You could nurse this all the way to the final table, only to bust out on the bubble. His point was why do this? Once you bust out, you go and reg for the next so why not take all that time spent nursing an injured stack and devote it to playing with a healthy one in the next tourney or playing in this tourney with your new healthier stack.

I'm not talking about nursing a short stack, when have I ever mentioned that? You should be taking every +EV spot to add chips to your stack, and you work out whether these are +EV in relation to your stack size.

I'm still failing to see how you could adjust your game when you are short, and keep only making profitable shoves, to try and catch up with average, because this is something you should be doing anyway?

Sounds more to me like people are avoiding spots with small +EV margins when they are above average which they were take when they are below average, which seems foolish.

If you do this until the final table, you'll come in 5th or better. Big enough to exploit others, large enough that the bigger stacks won't exploit*

No you won't - you could run a monster into a better monster, you could get sucked out on, you could be unable to find a spot to accumulate chips for a long period while all the other short stacks blind down leaving you 9/9, etc etc.

 

[Rldetheflop]

Maybe that's my problem, I had a tendency to implant this "rule" of 10 BB with near any sort of picture hand regardless of position and especially A,rag in EP and find I'm up against A,K who calls lol.

Well I think this is a lot of peoples problem. We shouldnt really be looking for "hands" to shove with we should should be looking for good "spots" to shove. Meaning we see all the factors(stack sizes, table dynamics and such) and that determines if this is our spot not our cards so much.

 

[bonflizubi]

people making this too complicated.

Just play your stack size, the table dynamics, the other players...and bubbles or other pressure spots where you can abuse people. Each hand is an opportunity to use all that info and make a decision as to whether you fold, play straightforward, or find that it's a great spot to make a move, with or without cards.

A marginal gamble is better to take in a bigger field tourney than a smaller one.

The better the structure the more patient you can be.

I think it boils down to those three.

 

[Debi]

people making this too complicated.

Just play your stack size, the table dynamics, the other players...and bubbles or other pressure spots where you can abuse people. Each hand is an opportunity to use all that info and make a decision as to whether you fold, play straightforward, or find that it's a great spot to make a move, with or without cards.

A marginal gamble is better to take in a bigger field tourney than a smaller one.

The better the structure the more patient you can be.

I think it boils down to those three.

Great post and sums up what I was trying to say in too many words about how it is not black and white.

 

[Pascal-lf]

He definitely doesn't say you should worry about ave. stack size

 

[PokerPete]

I'm not talking about nursing a short stack, when have I ever mentioned that?

You didn't. I was re-quoting Egon's post where he talks about not wanting to nurse a stack. I thought I understood what he meant, but maybe I didn't.

 

[Egon Towst]

He definitely doesn't say you should worry about ave. stack size

He did not say so specifically, but I don`t think you will find that Bonflizubi`s general views on tournament stategy differ very much from mine or Bwammo`s, judging from previous posts I have read from those two gentlemen.

In the course of a large MTT, skilled players will change gears several times, adjusting their style of play to suit such factors as relative stack sizes, the play of opponents at the table, and the strategic situation in the wider tournament.

In relation to the last of these, one of the signalments which a player might usefully use (and many of us do use) to determine when a gear change would be appropriate is one`s stack size as a proportion of the tournament average. If you are falling a long way below average stack while still in the middle stages of the tournament, you are not on course for a final table finish, and it is only final table finishes which offer a sufficient reward to interest those of us who are volume tournament players.

 

[Pascal-lf]

I just don't think your stack compared to average stack can cause you to play differently, as you will be playing based on your stack size, relative stack sizes, and the reads you have on other players - when you get short you widen your range anyway, regardless of average.

The only time I can see average stacks having any effect on my game is in sattelites when they are crucial.

As for your last sentence, I'm intrigued - do you not think I am a volume tournament player and that I don't seek to final table every tournament I play? In the last two months I've played around 1000 MTTs, with a decent ROI (if I am tooting my own horn a bit)

 

[Egon Towst]

The only time I can see average stacks having any effect on my game is in sattelites when they are crucial.

I can agree that they are even more important in satellites, but crucial in satellites and of no concern whatever in standard MTTs ? Really ?

In a satellite tournament where (for example) the top ten finishers win a seat and everyone else wins nothing, it is clear that anything other than a top ten finish is unacceptable and your every effort must be devoted to ensuring that you are on course to finish in that group.

I would argue that the situation is, for practical purposes and for experienced players who play a lot of MTTs, almost the same in a standard tourney. A final table finish is the intended goal and anything else is inconsequential and almost equivalent to failure.

As for your last sentence, I'm intrigued - do you not think I am a volume tournament player and that I don't seek to final table every tournament I play? In the last two months I've played around 1000 MTTs, with a decent ROI (if I am tooting my own horn a bit)

I am happy to hear of your success. Congratulations. There is, of course, no single correct answer to most questions in poker once one gets past the most basic level, and I am glad to hear that your approach yields good results. I would never argue that everyone must think as I do or fail, that would obviously be silly.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Some good comments and pointers I can work on here.

Thanks for taking the time, going to implant some more stuff I'm sure its helped me.

 

[VIVInv]

Great thread, found lots of answers ! :top:

 

[Shufflin]

^^ agreed -- thanks for bumping it!!

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

Ooooh, this one looks well worth reading

 

[darkassassin89]

My 2c

MTTs are like Lottery's The only thing is the BETTER players have a lot more tickets But only 1 ticket is the winner xD

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

That's just a fancy way of saying that the more players are involved in a tournament, the more variance you have to be prepared for.

 

[P0KerHoE69]

wow nice reads people i love coming here!!!

 

[Pascal-lf]

I can agree that they are even more important in satellites, but crucial in satellites and of no concern whatever in standard MTTs ? Really ?

In a satellite tournament where (for example) the top ten finishers win a seat and everyone else wins nothing, it is clear that anything other than a top ten finish is unacceptable and your every effort must be devoted to ensuring that you are on course to finish in that group.

I would argue that the situation is, for practical purposes and for experienced players who play a lot of MTTs, almost the same in a standard tourney. A final table finish is the intended goal and anything else is inconsequential and almost equivalent to failure.




I am happy to hear of your success. Congratulations. There is, of course, no single correct answer to most questions in poker once one gets past the most basic level, and I am glad to hear that your approach yields good results. I would never argue that everyone must think as I do or fail, that would obviously be silly.

I'd argue that a final table is seen as a failure as well, unless it's in something massive at the top of your buyin range and the cash means a lot to your bankroll. If it's a small final table then you're always hunting the position where the money means a lot you, or just to outright win.

I think you misunderstood what I meant about average stack. It is, of course, important in the sense that your stack of 8bb in one tournament may be huge while 15bb in another tournament may make you the short stack. Your playing style should therefore change to take into account ICM considerations (you'll gain more places by not playing any hands and thus more $$) and also fold equity. However, I'd say that's more about the average stack of your table, rather than the average stack of the whole tournament which is displayed in the bottom corner - although I understand where you're coming from

(I realise this topic is months old!)

 

[darkassassin89]

Old topic, but great refresher.

http://bit.ly/deadseapaysme

 

[baby kahuna]

Some great reads here. Rather than talk about tournament strategy I want to go to OPs mental status in regards to Large MTTs. When I first started I would play micro MTTs. There was the nightly Ferguson with about 1K runners for $1 and the afternoon Guarantee $.50 rebuy with huge numbers. I was quite content in cashing. No, proud of that fact. The attraction of these events were of course the huge rewards for a little risk. My strategy was to nit up to ITM and play loose from there. Until a forum poker friend steered me in the right direction.
In short I had to learn many other techniques and strategies to employ to make good money. I am suggesting to OP to make that his focus instead of trying to conquer Large MTTs. As stated more eloquently before MTTs is a high variance proposition and requires a lot more skill through the various stages of the tournament. Once you obtain these skills you will look at MTTs totally different.
Also do some research about Bankroll Building. Dont try to build your roll solely on trying to hit it big on a huge field. At our skill level, we might as well buy a lottery ticket. Do it by grinding the SNGs and smaller tournaments which you have some success at. There is a luxury in sitting in a large field with a big payoff at the end but it shouldnt be your main focus. You do sound like youre well on your way. This is just a suggestion and not criticism.

 

[darkassassin89]

Something I have been doing in my own tours. Look for spots to steal. This tip alone has gotten me deeper runs in the bigger games.

How do you do this? My technique is this. Make yourself steal 1 time per round
Every time the blinds hit you, you must steal to recover those blinds. This is how you stay afloat in the bigger MTTs. If you do this even being card dead you will run deep. Now finding spots, and fish, or NITS to steal from is on you.

I steal almost every time I'm in late position. Bttn, cut off, and hijack
However if their is action ahead then if I don't have a hand worth re raising I fold.

If you can implement these strategies in your mid game you will see you get closer to the end game more often.

Hope this helps some.