Free coaching inside!...What did I do, and why did I do it?

[10058765]

Hi,
I've definitely thought about this.
Saw so many responses with parts of my thinking in it, I didn't respond anymore and besides, I'm not really a SnG player so I think I don't even deserve a free coaching session.
However, if you would explain your way of thinking/playing here, it would be some kinda coaching/teaching anyway.
I'm very curious about your explanation Bwammo.
You're supposed to be thinking outof the box, and mention yourself you're not playing "normal" all the time.
So without going into details to much, I think you raised that amount to try to steal the blinds without investing to much.
Why raise to 300 if you could accomplish the same with 230 ?
Further, I think you don't feel comfortable with 2 short stacks to your left, so I think you were hoping for a battle of the blinds, one being eliminated or at least crippled, and the other having a bigger stack, being less desperate, easier to steal from and being more of a thread to Gonzo and ML_Tension.
My response to the shove would be a fold, bc you didn't give up much equity already, but you will if you loose ,what is imo a coin-flip or even worse if you call.

 

[Bwammo]

Ok, my apologies for the tardiness of the result here lol, got a bit caught up yesterday!

Aaaaanyway, after careful consideration I've come to the conclusion that Lofwyr's answer is the most complete and accurate answer given (well, accurate to what I was looking for hehe). So, to the victor goes the spoils and he shall receive 30 minutes of my counseling!

Some minor clarifications of Lorwyr's answer before I end this discussion:

Why the raise & particular sizing?
1) steal raise (obv) trying to take down the pot now or on a later street

My goal here is not to "steal", that's just an added benefit of trying to slightly increase the pot size to make it more profitable on the flop. The raise pre is more of a value raise than anything.

2) maintains a smaller pot-size making for smaller future bets if the raise gets flatted
3) gives you room to fold, mathematically speaking, if a player 3bet shoves on you
4) you're setting yourself up to play a pot in position against weaker players that don't appear to be overly aggressive
5) the smaller bet size also preserves your stack in the long-run by losing less each time you get called and fold post-flop or get raised and fold pre
6) in a weird inversion of the above stuff the smaller raise size will also make it easier to get action when you have a real hand

I will also get more action when I have a weaker hand too, which relates to my previous statement.

How to respond to the shove? Primarily we should be folding...why?
1) even against a loose shove range that includes non-broadway suited connectors K7o is going to be ~40% to win at best
2) given the pot odds and nature of the event (STT) we wish for more than breakeven/marginally +cEV to make this call
3) folding keeps our stack essentially tied for 1st and keeps the shove-ers stack in last place. Basically stack dynamics remain unchanged if we fold.

The fact that the stack dynamics would remain unchanged is quite possibly the most important reason to fold. If either the player to our left was shoving so few chips that doubling him up wouldn't put him in our stack bracket(it's ALWAYS best to have smaller stacks to your left to minimize danger and maximize our potential plays against them), or if the call would leave us a top stack upon losing and upon winning we would be roughly 2x the 2nd place stack...we would need much less of an edge to make a call.

4) counterpart of the above: if we call and win we do not open up that many more plays for our stack, if we call and lose we become the lowest chip-stack sandwiched between the 4 players tied for 1st.

What would need to change for the above decision to change?
1) we would have to be a clearly dominant chip-stack at this point (say -700 from the other 2700 stacks and +2100 to our stack). Such that losing was basically irrelevant and calling would freeze future re-steal attempts.

Roughly 3500-4k chips in our stack at the point of this hand would accomplish this.

2) we would have to be a horrible short-stack that was forced to gamble (though that would probably just make this an open-shove to begin with)
3) obviously having a hand with somewhat more equity could alter the decision
4) perhaps if there were still 7 or 8 players left this could be a call as raw cEV wouldl be slightly more relevant at that point

Very interesting thought here and I sort of agree...however with 7 or 8 left if we're still holding 27xBB we would probably be better served by just waiting until a couple players get knocked out. Losing our stack advantage when there's even more players(so the other players have less chips overall) is a little more detrimental to us in comparison to the benefits we get from having substantially more time to wait than the rest of the field.

5) in less specific terms: if calling + winning created future opportunities to exploit that significantly increased expectation of a win it would be more worthwhile to call and gamble.
6) if we had more exact information on the SB...like he was a psychotic blind defender or something

 

[Rldetheflop]

wtg Lofwyr and congrats. Interesting thread I wish I had seen it earlier.

This was a great idea Bwammo you teach us all a little and give one a chance for more training, awesome!

 

[Tangerine 53]

Bwammo many thanks for the offer here - I found it a stimulating change and a challenge even if I was way off...

Hope the coaching session is good for you Lofwyr and congrats to you. Maybe you'd like to come back and share some of the key learning points with the rest of us?

 

[Lofwyr]

Thanks Will be my first coaching session so that'll be fun.

I don't know that I'll post any official summation of the session and what I learn...but I certainly won't hold the info back if it's relevant to other discussion here

 

[Debi]

Congrats Lof - you are in for a treat!

 

[jaymfc]

"My goal here is not to "steal", that's just an added benefit of trying to slightly increase the pot size to make it more profitable on the flop. The raise pre is more of a value raise than anything "

don't get it , value raise a k7o ? are you just counting on out playing him because of position ?

"I will also get more action when I have a weaker hand too, which relates to my previous statement."

even more confused , you want more action with even weaker hands than k7o

"Roughly 3500-4k chips in our stack at the point of this hand would accomplish this."
if you had 4000 you would call this ???? sounds like one of those never ending games where the big stack just keeps doubling up the short stacks with total crap hands . (not saying you do that )
I take my answer back too , I don't think I could make the call drunk . maybe not even drunk and a $8000 stack (w/ 6 left ).


well I guess you might now know why I suck I can never wrap my head around some of the plays you and other pros make . I just can't shake my "to tight ass " way of thinking . you may be able to tell that I don't learn well from reading these days either lol .
although it may sound like it I am NOT trying to say you are wrong or offend you , you have my utmost respect as a player and teacher .

if you would please just clarify it a little more for a slo learner
(did this qualify me as the dumbest answer and half off a lesson lol .) jk
thanks for all you do here

 

[jbbb]

if you had 4000 you would call this ???? sounds like one of those never ending games where the big stack just keeps doubling up the short stacks with total crap hands . (not saying you do that )
I take my answer back too , I don't think I could make the call drunk . maybe not even drunk and a $8000 stack (w/ 6 left ).
well I guess you might now know why I suck I can never wrap my head around some of the plays you and other pros make . I just can't shake my "to tight ass " way of thinking . you may be able to tell that I don't learn well from reading these days either lol .
although it may sound like it I am NOT trying to say you are wrong or offend you , you have my utmost respect as a player and teacher .

if you would please just clarify it a little more for a slo learner
(did this qualify me as the dumbest answer and half off a lesson lol .) jk
thanks for all you do here

I think if he had 4000 chips the risk of calling and loosing means the stack dynamics would still be relatively similar than if he didn't call, i.e he'd still be the big stack and the stack to his left would be small enough to keep stealing from without worrying about another shove?

Also he's thinking about the risk/reward ratio, the risk of 1000 chips when you have 4000+ chips is very little, with the reward being a stack possibly knocked out and your equity in the SNG increasing.
Also remember that as your stack increases, the value of each chip decreases, meaning with a much larger stack he's actually risking less through calling the all-in.

even more confused , you want more action with even weaker hands than k7o

I don't understand this either?

 

[Bwammo]

I think if he had 4000 chips the risk of calling and loosing means the stack dynamics would still be relatively similar than if he didn't call, i.e he'd still be the big stack and the stack to his left would be small enough to keep stealing from without worrying about another shove?

Also he's thinking about the risk/reward ratio, the risk of 1000 chips when you have 4000+ chips is very little, with the reward being a stack possibly knocked out and your equity in the SNG increasing.
Also remember that as your stack increases, the value of each chip decreases, meaning with a much larger stack he's actually risking less through calling the all-in.

Yep, this is basically why its more ok.

don't get it , value raise a k7o ? are you just counting on out playing him because of position ?

even more confused , you want more action with even weaker hands than k7o

Well, K7o sucks. It only has value in winning tiny pots and bluffing. When the pot gets large, or someone shows aggression, K7o loses TONS of value. That being said...the same goes for worse hands than K7o. K5o, K2o, all in the same boat...but K7o atleast has a tiny chance of hitting a mid pair with the 7 which we may be able to use to our advantage.

The reason why we want MORE action with our weaker hands...is we don't really care at all about the pot preflop. A whole 1.5xBB pickup, wooh, we barely even notice the chips being added to our stack. But...if we can get action from even the worst hands our opponents have, like say 60%+ of the possible holdings...they are going into the flop with the same crappy types of hands we're raising with, except they do not have position and, hopefully, do not have the same postflop ability as us.

 

[jaymfc]

ok better thanks for the extra help

 

[ruffcut68]

1. You noticed villian has been 3 betting light therefor probably a WIDE RANGE
2 2.3 BB standard raise-Standtard Steal
VILLIAN PUSHES TIME TO DOUBLE CHECK READ
3. YOU Got caugt blind stealing
time to double check your read
if through show downs you notice villian 3betting light then
Options
CALL AND WIN PUTS YOU ITM AND SHOWS YOU WILL PLAY A WEAK HAND -VERY ADVANTAGES LATER IF PICK UP
GOOD HAND-your ITM

FOLD and loose what is in the pot-Acceptable Loss with current chipstack

Call and loose- still have chips to work with next raise with a good hand your called for sure
IF READ IS GOOD THEN obious CALL else it is a fold
4.sOUTION IS CALL YOUR PROBABLY ONLY A COIN FLIP HERE and the obove noted reasons if you loos