Hi,

I recently played a live tournement (200€ buy-in, 235 players) and folded QQ on the bubble (26 paid).
I was on the button. Around 20BB deep and got dealt QQ. There is a raise from UTG who covers me but doesn't have that much more.
At this point we were all quite shallow anyway and most people were close to the push or fold mode. So with that in mind raise UTG, I put the guy on a very strong holding. So I decided to fold.
Then I asked the guy. He had AK... It would have been a flip.
I still think It was the right decision but I'm curious of what you think. Would you have done differently?
At the end I busted 14th with... QQ hahaha. Against AQ. The guy hit an As...

Originally Posted by Phil2307

Hi,

I recently played a live tournement (200€ buy-in, 235 players) and folded QQ on the bubble (26 paid).
I was on the button. Around 20BB deep and got dealt QQ. There is a raise from UTG who covers me but doesn't have that much more.
At this point we were all quite shallow anyway and most people were close to the push or fold mode. So with that in mind raise UTG, I put the guy on a very strong holding. So I decided to fold.
Then I asked the guy. He had AK... It would have been a flip.
I still think It was the right decision but I'm curious of what you think. Would you have done differently?
At the end I busted 14th with... QQ hahaha. Against AQ. The guy hit an As...

Probably only correct in a Satellite; otherwise, you have additional fold equity (which he's prob not folding AK) but any other hand besides AK you gain fold equity, so against the range yes an all-in is better than a fold for min-cash; but if your game is to min-cash as much as possible then you do you and don't try to win tournaments.

I would have pushed all in there. He was too deep to push all in and considering this was the money bubble he most likely would have folded. While cashing is always good, the goal is to win the tournament. Think about how you may have done had you played the queens and doubled up.

UTG raise 2-3bb or shave? I think in the worst case you could call raise and decide on flop lol..

First of all, it does not matter what villain said he had. It matters what you thought his range is.

I think I would try it, and with a raise and continue raising, maybe the other player would think to fold.

If the prize money meant a lot to me I would fold - in a normal tournament push.

(And fold in a satellite, of course).

This is a 2-way decision. Folding that hand will get you ITM but at the same time if you shove it all in, you have high chances to be in FT.
So, it depend on if you want your 200€ back with a couple hundreds more or you want it turning into 9000€ by winning the tournament.
I always told myself that in poker there's no right or wrong decision.
Only winning or losing outcome.

Originally Posted by Phil2307

Hi,

I recently played a live tournement (200€ buy-in, 235 players) and folded QQ on the bubble (26 paid).
I was on the button. Around 20BB deep and got dealt QQ. There is a raise from UTG who covers me but doesn't have that much more.
At this point we were all quite shallow anyway and most people were close to the push or fold mode. So with that in mind raise UTG, I put the guy on a very strong holding. So I decided to fold.
Then I asked the guy. He had AK... It would have been a flip.
I still think It was the right decision but I'm curious of what you think. Would you have done differently?
At the end I busted 14th with... QQ hahaha. Against AQ. The guy hit an As...

I will never fold third best hand in preflop, after just a single raise. You need to use the bubble as an opportunity to increase your stack to run deep in the tournament, because the big payoff always come at the final table.

Yes I confirm. you have made the right decision. personally with an average stack. I do not hesitate to throw my cards and wait to be in the places to pay to start playing again.

I would have done the same thing. I play to make the cut then play aggressive after I have made it.

I think that in this situation you did everything right. On the bubble it is necessary to play carefully, especially if there is no statistics (HUD) or notes on the opponent.

QQ yeah. How many times have I burned myself with that witch. It all depends on the game, now I'm careful with it.

I think at least you can see a flop with QQ in that case but i understand what you are think at that moment of the game, been there and busted with AA against KK so i know shit happens

Originally Posted by Phil2307

Hi, I recently played a live tournement (200€ buy-in, 235 players) and folded QQ on the bubble (26 paid). I was on the button. Around 20BB deep and got dealt QQ. There is a raise from UTG who covers me but doesn't have that much more. At this point we were all quite shallow anyway and most people were close to the push or fold mode. So with that in mind raise UTG, I put the guy on a very strong holding. So I decided to fold.
Then I asked the guy. He had AK... It would have been a flip.
I still think It was the right decision but I'm curious of what you think. Would you have done differently?
At the end I busted 14th with... QQ hahaha. Against AQ. The guy hit an As...

hi hi phil
for me a poker beginner, hardest thing i learn or try learn, be patience
i luv to play & gamble so i learning fold more, play smarter...
so now i click fold very often

Krista sits at puter, a bit bored watching twitch, shopping for new boots on amazon, read email...
and she click FOLD so often *sighs*
finally along come a queen & another queen & she in position!!!
eureka!!!! finally a hand can play poker, why she register this - to play poker
finally she can PLAY!!!
whoops.... wait ICM say play more cautious, she on the bubble after 2 hours close to achieve monies....
no - hell with it, Krista 3bets!
whoops rats.... flop has a K.... yikes... heck with it - Krista call the raise
at showdown pair K defeat her QQ and get zero monies... showers for her
Krista cries

If it was me, i would like put pressure to him by reraise. But sometimes shit happens even we have overpair on preflop.

From my point of view it was a very right decision and one that took a lot of self control. The bubble IS a big deal in higher stake tournaments. And the percentage of the prize goes up and up. best of luck.

Definitely would have pushed. Only two hands beat you preflop. He must be aware of the bubble too! A shove to a UTG raise looks extremely strong anyways.

Originally Posted by Phil2307

Hi,

I recently played a live tournement (200€ buy-in, 235 players) and folded QQ on the bubble (26 paid).
I was on the button. Around 20BB deep and got dealt QQ. There is a raise from UTG who covers me but doesn't have that much more.
At this point we were all quite shallow anyway and most people were close to the push or fold mode. So with that in mind raise UTG, I put the guy on a very strong holding. So I decided to fold.
Then I asked the guy. He had AK... It would have been a flip.
I still think It was the right decision but I'm curious of what you think. Would you have done differently?
At the end I busted 14th with... QQ hahaha. Against AQ. The guy hit an As...

On the bubble I dont hate it, as long as thier are a few stacks under 5 BBs.... it would be a disaster if we busted before those smaller stacks.... now if Vil and I were the low stacks, I dont think we can fold ever, unless it's a satty.

Originally Posted by Phil2307

Hi,

I recently played a live tournement (200€ buy-in, 235 players) and folded QQ on the bubble (26 paid).
I was on the button. Around 20BB deep and got dealt QQ. There is a raise from UTG who covers me but doesn't have that much more.
At this point we were all quite shallow anyway and most people were close to the push or fold mode. So with that in mind raise UTG, I put the guy on a very strong holding. So I decided to fold.
Then I asked the guy. He had AK... It would have been a flip.
I still think It was the right decision but I'm curious of what you think. Would you have done differently?
At the end I busted 14th with... QQ hahaha. Against AQ. The guy hit an As...

Thank U 4 Posting.

What would villain have done with JJ 1010 99 88 AQ AQs KQ KQS here? We know villain raises not shoves AK AA KK but what is villains live- no HUD- scared of being the bubble boy range when just raising? 99 raise fold? AQ off raise fold? How often live do you see villains shoving AQ off UTG for 20 bb on the bubble? But why would villain just fold that hand?

This is always villain dependent so we have to observe how villains play AQ off to know to include it in the range possibility.

Hope this helps

I wouldve folded AA online unless i knew i was running hot or felt like giving the program a chance to sink me.I can usually tell by the way the hands have been falling if its going to be a good fold,better safe than sorry more so online than live i thinks.

I think that that is a rough call. However, I think that even on the bubble QQ is a good starting hand and I think that I would have went for it and pushed with it.

Even on the bubble this is way to nitty. QQ is the third best starting hand in NLH, and even he is raising UTG, you are still way ahead of his range. I am surpriced however, that everyone wants to jam here. Sure jamming is easy, but being on the bubble and with a somewhat awkward stack size for 3-betting it is certainly also an option to flat and try to play a small pot.

If he really had AK, this would have been pretty easy to play postflop. On A or K high board, you only pay off one bet at the most, and on low boards he is likely giving up, if you call his flop C-bet. Or he simply check-fold, and you take it down.

Sure flatting could induce the blinds to jam light, but with a hand as strong as QQ, you dont even mind that. You just get it in and hope to hold, and if UTG has called, you get out of the way and hope, that one of them bust.

Just to elaborate on the above, the mathematical reason, we want to play tight on the bubble, is ICM. There is a high "bubble factor" (literally), which mean, that chips won are worth less than chips lost. However that mostly apply, if we play a big pot. If we only play for 10-25% of our stack, chips won will be worth nearly the same as chips lost.

Also there are around 2,5BB in blinds and antes to fight for every hand, and if we just let other players pick that up all the time, while waiting for the bubble to bust, we are giving up on a significant amount of EV. So we cant be bubble scared to the point of shutting down completely. It need to be some reasonable compromise between making it in the money and chipping up or at least not get blinded away.

Of course, this is the right decision. You played correctly. We want to win money. It is on the buble that this is correct. He could have both AA and Kk. And with his AK you have a flip. So everything is correct.

It depends on how much the money means to you. If you play it safe, like you did, and squeak through into the money you lost nothing but your time and now you have the possibility to outplay everyone for a final table spot.

If your bankroll can take the hit, then go for 1st place. Size your bet either to make it look suspicious or put it all in. You only are able to make big wins by making big plays and consistently playing favorable percentages.

Again, my opinion doesn't mean much but I follow the above logic. For example, I've been playing Poker Star's BB series (aka Bad Beat series) and despite the favorable percentages, anywhere from 3% to 70% advantage, I lost the majority of the time. This is variance.

At the moment I'm in a small MTT where I qualified via satellite and am in the top 100 out of a 1000 entrants. I'm not afraid of putting it all in to make someone blink..even or especially with a pure bluff...at this juncture throw the math out the window and play by feel.

End note, finished 99th with 7 bounties, I had AJu and the winner had QQ...fitting.

Originally Posted by JBGoode

On the bubble I dont hate it, as long as thier are a few stacks under 5 BBs.... it would be a disaster if we busted before those smaller stacks.... now if Vil and I were the low stacks, I dont think we can fold ever, unless it's a satty.

'IF' there's a few stacks under 5 BB's... and we're on the exact bubble, why wouldn't we want to put max. pressure on the initial raiser by shoving in this spot? It's villain who needs to consider busting out here in this case.

IMO, bad fold with the QQ (I'm never folding there). If I'm thinking of folding in this spot, I should consider not entering the tourney in the first place.

Originally Posted by Polytarp

It depends on how much the money means to you. If you play it safe, like you did, and squeak through into the money you lost nothing but your time (< actually you've lost an opportunity to pick up chips! In MTT's we really can't afford to pass up on great spots to pick up chips) and now you have the possibility to outplay everyone for a final table spot.

.at this juncture throw the math out the window and play by feel.

.

Personally I don't throw the math out the window even if I'm in a freeroll. It just doesn't make sense to me (or perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here)

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

'IF' there's a few stacks under 5 BB's... and we're on the exact bubble, why wouldn't we want to put max. pressure on the initial raiser by shoving in this spot? It's villain who needs to consider busting out here in this case.

IMO, bad fold with the QQ (I'm never folding there). If I'm thinking of folding in this spot, I should consider not entering the tourney in the first place.

Because we have the stack to servive ITM, I would do the same if I had a Middle stack at the FT, and was 4Bet jammed on against the chip leader with 1-3 stacks that had only a few big blinds.... if we lose, and go out 8th or 9th, we are basicly setting the diffrence of 4th or 5th place money on fire, or basicly handing that diffrence to the lower stacked players....

But if we are the low stacks we have to call to try and level our stack....

It's the basic principle of ICM....

I would bet hard, and maybe he didn't have AK you have to see his rank

Originally Posted by Phil2307

Hi,

I recently played a live tournement (200€ buy-in, 235 players) and folded QQ on the bubble (26 paid).
I was on the button. Around 20BB deep and got dealt QQ. There is a raise from UTG who covers me but doesn't have that much more.
At this point we were all quite shallow anyway and most people were close to the push or fold mode. So with that in mind raise UTG, I put the guy on a very strong holding. So I decided to fold.
Then I asked the guy. He had AK... It would have been a flip.
I still think It was the right decision but I'm curious of what you think. Would you have done differently?
At the end I busted 14th with... QQ hahaha. Against AQ. The guy hit an As...

I think it is a fine fold on the bubble, just like with the AQ he could have hit his random hand and busted you. A fold on the bubble is fine with QQ as it is usually going to be in a spot where your opponent has over cards. QQ is slightly stronger than JJ but plays just like them when your facing a A or a K which a under the gun raiser could definitely have. If you really felt like taking a shot and possibly putting yourself in a spot to actually win or final table the tourney you could possibly find a call here. I think its a fine fold if your worried about the money, but if you want to win a tournament and not just cash I would call it off as he could have very well had 77 through JJ. You took the path that guaranteed you money but next time make the call and see how that goes for you , it might help you win the tourney in the long run(or you just bust out). Pokers poker you never know what to do exactly and if you do you you might just get unlucky. All in all not the worst fold but not the best either, you played it safe and won money, not the worse result.

Here no one can say with certainty what would happen after your call or allin. But by the logic of things you did the right thing. Why take risks in the vicinity of the money bag. I would also discard a card.

I consider that you could also call. His range is strong but he also could have TT, JJ, AQ+.
If an ace will come, most probably he will check if he doesn't have one, since is the bubble and he has just few BB more than you.

If there is a flop with small cards, you can call the flop bet and go from there.
This you do it if you have a small bankroll and double up your buy in could matter.

If you want to win you shove directly and that's it.

I had a similar situation recently the first called with 77 the second QQ I had KK I was older and also called I did everything correctly considering the situation and before the flop had an advantage over the opponents the hand gave Q on the flop and we fell.Playing it is necessary to consider the fact that not always you will be at altitude so you did the right thing waited for payment).good luck friends!

It would take a very extreme situation here before I’d want to pass on shoving the QQ in this spot; such as that there are multiple extremely tiny (like 2bb or less) size stacks such that our ICM tax for going broke and bubbling would be extreme, and that I had a way more solid read on my opponent here such that I knew he had a very solid understanding of ICM and could give him a super strong range where I had no fold equity. Even if all of those variables applied, I’d have an extremely tough time folding here—and since they don’t seem to all be the case I would shove here.

I think this is the correct decision, precisely because of because of a raise with UTG, but I probably would not folded QQ)

Originally Posted by YKCaiTLH1314

This is a 2-way decision. Folding that hand will get you ITM but at the same time if you shove it all in, you have high chances to be in FT.
So, it depend on if you want your 200€ back with a couple hundreds more or you want it turning into 9000€ by winning the tournament.
I always told myself that in poker there's no right or wrong decision.
Only winning or losing outcome.

Spot on. This time I was happy to min cash. Next time I'll go for FT!!

Originally Posted by bstest

From my point of view it was a very right decision and one that took a lot of self control. The bubble IS a big deal in higher stake tournaments. And the percentage of the prize goes up and up. best of luck.

Thanks bro.

you got to be a hero my friend!!!because folding pair QQ got to be hard... maybe if i had a lot of money in stake maybe

It is a shove or fold situation for me the way you described your stacks and your holding. Raising would only be an option if I plan to shove if opponent raises. Bubble would not be relevant for me since I don´t have a huge stack and the odds speak for my hand.

Originally Posted by Katie Dozier

It would take a very extreme situation here before I’d want to pass on shoving the QQ in this spot; such as that there are multiple extremely tiny (like 2bb or less) size stacks such that our ICM tax for going broke and bubbling would be extreme, and that I had a way more solid read on my opponent here such that I knew he had a very solid understanding of ICM and could give him a super strong range where I had no fold equity. Even if all of those variables applied, I’d have an extremely tough time folding here—and since they don’t seem to all be the case I would shove here.

Regarding the way the guy was playing, his relatively shallow stack, the bubble pressure and his position raise, all those factors led me thinking he had a very strong holdings. Even JJs I'm not sure he plays it in this position. I might be wrong but that's how it felt. Nevertheless folding QQs was pretty damn hard...

Originally Posted by Phil2307

Regarding the way the guy was playing, his relatively shallow stack, the bubble pressure and his position raise, all those factors led me thinking he had a very strong holdings. Even JJs I'm not sure he plays it in this position. I might be wrong but that's how it felt. Nevertheless folding QQs was pretty damn hard...

I think, you are suffering from, what is called mirror complex. You nit up completely on the bubble yourself, and therefore you think, everyone else does the same. But good players actually do the opposite to take advantage of guys like you. Maybe it was complete BS, that he had AK. It could have been 65 offsuit, if he was good and sensed, that the rest of the table was a bunch of bubble scared nits.

Well, I would tell my story. I was on the final table on Foxwods tournament 60$ buy in. Six places pays, 9 left, and I was like middle stack. Under the gun shows all in( he was shortest stack), I had QQ and go all. I thought it was a opportunity to fight for first place if I get through. But he had AA and I didn’t make it. Couple hands later I was busted and didn’t make any money. So I think you make right decision by folding your QQ. You will probably have same outcome like me

no, at this spot and time, no folding

You managed to advance, so everything was done correctly. Maybe QQ's hand was unlucky that day for you. But there's no escaping fate. Just like in the movie "Final Destination".

Personally, I would watch the flop or go all-in, my actions depend on how aggressive this player played before (although I do not consider folding in this case a big mistake) !!!

Originally Posted by JBGoode

Because we have the stack to servive ITM, I would do the same if I had a Middle stack at the FT, and was 4Bet jammed on against the chip leader with 1-3 stacks that had only a few big blinds.... if we lose, and go out 8th or 9th, we are basicly setting the diffrence of 4th or 5th place money on fire, or basicly handing that diffrence to the lower stacked players....

But if we are the low stacks we have to call to try and level our stack....

It's the basic principle of ICM....

So we are automatically assuming villain isn't ICM aware? Don't WE consider that WE have fold equity in this spot?
This spot is much different than the one you've mentioned "if we're 4-bet jammed on against CL..."

If you go for a min cash, then what you did is correct. If you go for the win or a big score, then a misplay.

I'd do the same as you because I'd like to get some money back, but you don't score that big one playing like that.

Originally Posted by YKCaiTLH1314

This is a 2-way decision. Folding that hand will get you ITM but at the same time if you shove it all in, you have high chances to be in FT.
So, it depend on if you want your 200€ back with a couple hundreds more or you want it turning into 9000€ by winning the tournament.
I always told myself that in poker there's no right or wrong decision.
Only winning or losing outcome.

Best example of a Positive Mind.
Cannot say it better.

Originally Posted by Katie Dozier

It would take a very extreme situation here before I’d want to pass on shoving the QQ in this spot; such as that there are multiple extremely tiny (like 2bb or less) size stacks such that our ICM tax for going broke and bubbling would be extreme, and that I had a way more solid read on my opponent here such that I knew he had a very solid understanding of ICM and could give him a super strong range where I had no fold equity. Even if all of those variables applied, I’d have an extremely tough time folding here—and since they don’t seem to all be the case I would shove here.

I so agree with you.

Its a strong hand.