Flatting AK from SB???

[rckstr2b]

I feel compelled to add something to the thread.
Agree on the advice to go all-in with 20BB effective stack or at least 3-bet but I am still more inclined to just shove.

From all the posts here, few caught my eye:

In no way is this a obvious flat call situation. If what you say is true then you always need to 3-bet bluff here and AK is perfect for such situations to balance out your range.
Additionally, if you do decide to call, and there is no A or K on the board, with villain c-betting you don't know where you stand and what to do, since you say that BU is opening every time when action is folded to him, therefore has a vast range of hands in that position.


This "waiting for opponents mistake" is a mistake by itself in my opinion. I guess the villain's mistake in this instance would be to bluff c-bet, and you calling him to a turn, or shoving on the flop based on some dead read.
Problem is you are not narrowing opponents range by just calling pre flop, therefore, any 3 cards coming out may have hit him, which would incline villain to value c-bet such flop. If you then decide to call thinking opponent is making a mistake, you basically become a calling station, and at what point in the hand do you give up? what do you do when on the turn villain shoves remaingin 15BB or so, and you invested 5 already pre and post flop...

To sum, flatting places you in a tricky spot on several levels, from disbalanced range, to forcing yourself to make difficult choices post flop.

At least 1 person gets it

 

[glennelson]

Not crazy about that move, especially if there are limpers. I always like to narrow the rage of hands I could be up against on the flop and get rid of the BB. You don't wanna be up against 7 5 with A K and a K 5 5 flop.

 

[ssbn743]

I feel compelled to add something to the thread.
Agree on the advice to go all-in with 20BB effective stack or at least 3-bet but I am still more inclined to just shove.

From all the posts here, few caught my eye:

In no way is this a obvious flat call situation. If what you say is true then you always need to 3-bet bluff here and AK is perfect for such situations to balance out your range.
Additionally, if you do decide to call, and there is no A or K on the board, with villain c-betting you don't know where you stand and what to do, since you say that BU is opening every time when action is folded to him, therefore has a vast range of hands in that position.


This "waiting for opponents mistake" is a mistake by itself in my opinion. I guess the villain's mistake in this instance would be to bluff c-bet, and you calling him to a turn, or shoving on the flop based on some dead read.
Problem is you are not narrowing opponents range by just calling pre flop, therefore, any 3 cards coming out may have hit him, which would incline villain to value c-bet such flop. If you then decide to call thinking opponent is making a mistake, you basically become a calling station, and at what point in the hand do you give up? what do you do when on the turn villain shoves remaingin 15BB or so, and you invested 5 already pre and post flop...

To sum, flatting places you in a tricky spot on several levels, from disbalanced range, to forcing yourself to make difficult choices post flop.

What's difficult about check/folding if I don't hit the flop?

You have to get maximum value in every situation to be successful at tournament poker, shoving damn sure does not get max value most of the time. Sure, there are times when he has AQ or 1010 or something and calls, but most of the time he folds. Case in point, he had A10dd - do you really think he calls an all-in 3 bet, or even a min 3-bet? He doesn't......ever.....and I only would have succeeded in folding out all the combos I beat.

Flatting in this spot, with this Big Blind, and this button, with these stack sizes is perfectly fine - that's not even the issue of this post. The issue, is how flatting such a huge hand OOP effects my overall range and hands I may play down the road with this guy.

 

[AlexTheOwl]

Yep, that's exactly right - I didn't say I always flat with AK in the SB. In fact, I thought it was quite an anomaly that I did so twice within an hour of each other; and with the same villain.

If this is truly an anomaly then you are answering your own question about how flatting here affects your range. It doesn't.

What's difficult about check/folding if I don't hit the flop?

You have to get maximum value in every situation to be successful at tournament poker, shoving damn sure does not get max value most of the time. Sure, there are times when he has AQ or 1010 or something and calls, but most of the time he folds. Case in point, he had A10dd - do you really think he calls an all-in 3 bet, or even a min 3-bet? He doesn't......ever.....and I only would have succeeded in folding out all the combos I beat.

If the plan here is fit-or-fold poker post-flop, I don't think you are maximizing, or even making a profitable play at all.
Most of the time you miss, and fold to a c-bet. That gets expensive quickly in raised pots.
Most of the times that you hit, he doesn't have a strong hand, and doesn't pay you off with a big pot.
Some times you hit and lose to a better hand.

 

[rckstr2b]

If the plan here is fit-or-fold poker post-flop, I don't think you are maximizing, or even making a profitable play at all.
Most of the time you miss, and fold to a c-bet. That gets expensive quickly in raised pots.

Exactly right. Also this guy dumped almost half his stack into the raise. If he does fold, Sweet. He’ll be severely short stack and probably isn’t comfortable playing a 10-15bb stack. I’d call his shoves after that fairly wide. Also, then you’d know this guy is willing to put in half his stack and fold which means he’s a total [emoji225] possibly a [emoji228], and really can’t wait to play as many hands against this opponent as I can.

 

[ssbn743]

Exactly right. Also this guy dumped almost half his stack into the raise. If he does fold, Sweet. He’ll be severely short stack and probably isn’t comfortable playing a 10-15bb stack. I’d call his shoves after that fairly wide. Also, then you’d know this guy is willing to put in half his stack and fold which means he’s a total [emoji225] possibly a [emoji228], and really can’t wait to play as many hands against this opponent as I can.

2 BB's is not half of ~20BB's - sorry for the math seminar.

 

[terryk]

I like the flat,,got to mix it up sometimes Glad it worked out for ya!:top:

 

[rckstr2b]

2 BB's is not half of ~20BB's - sorry for the math seminar.

Sorry about that. I was commenting on 2 different threads with similar hands and stacks but different bet sizing.
You’re absolutely right. My advice still stands though for the rest of the hand

 

[Bozovicdj]

You have to get maximum value in every situation to be successful at tournament poker, shoving damn sure does not get max value most of the time. Sure, there are times when he has AQ or 1010 or something and calls, but most of the time he folds. Case in point, he had A10dd - do you really think he calls an all-in 3 bet, or even a min 3-bet? He doesn't......ever.....and I only would have succeeded in folding out all the combos I beat.

How are you ever getting max value out of this play?
I mean, the only possible way of getting max value would be if both you and your opponent hit an A, meaning you really need to be lucky. If your opponent has some Ax, depending on other cards, he still may not give you max value or he may hit 2 pair and dominate over you.
By what you are saying, it kinda sounds like flatting from the SB with any 2 cards is also "perfectly fine" because, hell, if you hit that is great, if not, its just 2BB you lost, big deal...

Also, if he did have ATs on the BU, it is actually, in this very instance, possible he would call all in. Blinds are high, 20BB stack including his raise. So your shove would look like a squeeze play, as if you are bullying a shortstack, therefore your 3-bet range there is huge, and ATs beats or at least flips with some portion of it.

 

[ssbn743]

How are you ever getting max value out of this play?
I mean, the only possible way of getting max value would be if both you and your opponent hit an A, meaning you really need to be lucky. If your opponent has some Ax, depending on other cards, he still may not give you max value or he may hit 2 pair and dominate over you.
By what you are saying, it kinda sounds like flatting from the SB with any 2 cards is also "perfectly fine" because, hell, if you hit that is great, if not, its just 2BB you lost, big deal...

Also, if he did have ATs on the BU, it is actually, in this very instance, possible he would call all in. Blinds are high, 20BB stack including his raise. So your shove would look like a squeeze play, as if you are bullying a shortstack, therefore your 3-bet range there is huge, and ATs beats or at least flips with some portion of it.

Yeah, I hear you, but trust me, he was not calling a 3-bet or an all-in, even with A10dd - my lines in these spots, while definitely not the norm, were the max-value lines.

 

[DcrcKdKng]

against a good agressive player with 20 bbs (in a mid~late stage of the tournament) i would probably make a 3bet to induce his all in.

the problem is that a 3bet of the sb usually can take the vilain of the hand, bacause is too Strong... and we really don't want that, in the mid~late stage, we want to stack him; but in this scenario i would probably 3 bet hopping that he 4bet-shoves.

but i am ok in flatting AK and big pairs too (against good players is even better, deceiving must be part of your arsenal).


but hitting the top pair against the 20bb player i would opt for a check raise line in the flop or turn.

Regards,

 

[wuffeli]

I feel compelled to add something to the thread.
Agree on the advice to go all-in with 20BB effective stack or at least 3-bet but I am still more inclined to just shove.

From all the posts here, few caught my eye:

In no way is this a obvious flat call situation. If what you say is true then you always need to 3-bet bluff here and AK is perfect for such situations to balance out your range.
Additionally, if you do decide to call, and there is no A or K on the board, with villain c-betting you don't know where you stand and what to do, since you say that BU is opening every time when action is folded to him, therefore has a vast range of hands in that position.


This "waiting for opponents mistake" is a mistake by itself in my opinion. I guess the villain's mistake in this instance would be to bluff c-bet, and you calling him to a turn, or shoving on the flop based on some dead read.
Problem is you are not narrowing opponents range by just calling pre flop, therefore, any 3 cards coming out may have hit him, which would incline villain to value c-bet such flop. If you then decide to call thinking opponent is making a mistake, you basically become a calling station, and at what point in the hand do you give up? what do you do when on the turn villain shoves remaingin 15BB or so, and you invested 5 already pre and post flop...

To sum, flatting places you in a tricky spot on several levels, from disbalanced range, to forcing yourself to make difficult choices post flop.

Thank you, I could not have said it better. Hero has equity and I guess he wants to hold on to it, his strategy simply traps himself when villains hit their J6o. Premium hand = premium price for the flop.

E: Just like in every hand, it is just unfortunate if they fold.

 

[wuffeli]

Yeah, I hear you, but trust me, he was not calling a 3-bet or an all-in, even with A10dd - my lines in these spots, while definitely not the norm, were the max-value lines.

Why in the seven ducklings that would be the ideal case here?

If you are not getting action, that is just okay. You are getting deliberately beaten up if you want him to start betting later on the hand when he has it. Better just raise preflop and see if he is willing to play than let him see flop for free and maybe even hit something. Unless he is known aggro which would mean he will probably raise BB, then flat from SB and go for 3-bet. It is just mental to flat from SB and let opponent to see cards for free. My opinion.

 

[the0]

I think that you should flat-call to increase equity gained dominated hands.