DoN/Fifty50 SnG

Marshmalo1994

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What do you guys think about this kind of sngs.

(1) Are they profitable long term?

(2) Is it ok to play them with the same strategy that in any other stt?

I just have a general idea of this kind of games in sites as PS and 888.
(3) Do you have any experience playing them in these or any other sites?
 
Andyreas

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I haven't played them myself a lot but I think @fundiver199 plays them frequently, if I'm not mistaken.

I can imagine the bubble is quite important and heavy since it's similar to a satellite when you receive full prize or none.

On 888, they seem to only be able in Super Turbo, which isn't my thing.
 
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fundiver199

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The traditional Dubble or Nothing (DoN) is just like a sattellite, since all prices are equal. This give a very extreme ICM situation, which definitely should affect your strategy. After all if you cash with 1 chip, you still cashed, and there is nothing more to achieve by cashing with 10.000 chips. I have not played these a lot, and I dont think, those on 888 Poker are long term profitable. The structure is to fast and the rake to high.

Fifty/50 is a format, pokerstars introduced years ago to replace DoNs. Those I have played a lot, and my ROI is significantly higher than for 9-mans or 18-mans on Stars. Part of the reason for this is, Stars offer them with a very reasonable rake. In this format its still half the field (4 out of 8), who cashes, but unlike in a DoN half the price pool is distributed based on stack sizes. This mean, that your strategy for these games is not substantially different from that used in 9-mans or 18-mans. In fact ICM is less extreme than in a 9-man, because in a 9-man 60% of the price pool is distributed on the bubble, whereas in a Fifty/50 its only 50%.

Just to give an example lets say, we are on the bubble, and everyone have 10BB. The first player move all-in, and it folds to us in BB. In a DoN we can then only call with JJ+, and this is even assuming, that the opponent is jamming any two cards. In a 9-man we only expect the opponent to be jamming 35% of hands. But even so we can call with 99+, AQ+, ATs+, because dubbling up will give us a better chance to finish first or second.

In a Fifty/50 we only expect the opponent to be jamming 25% of hands, but we can call with 88+, AJ+, ATs, so actually a few hands more than in a 9-man. The reason for this is, that even though the tournament is over, regardless who win, having the extra chips pay out directly and is actually more valuable than having them in a 9-man. But its small details, and if we use the 9-man calling range in a Fifty/50 this is not nearly as big a mistake as using the DoN calling range.
 
Marshmalo1994

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@fundiver199 great explanation, thanks!
I got it clear, but you make me realize that I have a lot to learn about ICM and strategy in different tournament formats. 😳👉👈
 
EmptyHouse

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This format is concreted at higher stakes by the regs. Already at $ 5 it is very difficult. I have played it a lot for many years. It is now a format with no future.
 
Igor G

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What do you guys think about this kind of sngs.

(1) Are they profitable long term?

(2) Is it ok to play them with the same strategy that in any other stt?

I just have a general idea of this kind of games in sites as PS and 888.
(3) Do you have any experience playing them in these or any other sites?
I like tournaments of this format. They do not take much time, which I always lack, and the result is also felt immediately.
 
MrHachiman

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I was studied the profitability of these games in different rooms a years ago.
First of all, it is very important that the room you play in has rakeback, since a large part of the profits will come from that side.
On the other hand, they are games with much less variance than a conventional tournament. So your graph will be more linear, but the profit jumps will be less big.
And yes it is possible to get a steady income from these games, with a decent game but you have to consider that you will have to play a high volume of tables to earn more rakeback. Besides that the game will become more mechanical and less creative.
On the other hand, strategy-wise, I would say that this changes in an INCREDIBLE way compared to a conventional tournament. Basically it is as if you were playing a satellite. In other words, the bubble factor is very strong when there are few players left. Therefore, there are practically situations where you should fold any two. This was the craziest thing to find out for me, when I was studying some hands that I considered calls like AK, AQ to discover that I should be folding just because of the ICM factor.
 
Marshmalo1994

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I was studied the profitability of these games in different rooms a years ago.
First of all, it is very important that the room you play in has rakeback, since a large part of the profits will come from that side.
On the other hand, they are games with much less variance than a conventional tournament. So your graph will be more linear, but the profit jumps will be less big.
And yes it is possible to get a steady income from these games, with a decent game but you have to consider that you will have to play a high volume of tables to earn more rakeback. Besides that the game will become more mechanical and less creative.
On the other hand, strategy-wise, I would say that this changes in an INCREDIBLE way compared to a conventional tournament. Basically it is as if you were playing a satellite. In other words, the bubble factor is very strong when there are few players left. Therefore, there are practically situations where you should fold any two. This was the craziest thing to find out for me, when I was studying some hands that I considered calls like AK, AQ to discover that I should be folding just because of the ICM factor.
Very interesting facts!
I would love to learn more about how do you get to study a game like that.
 
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@fundiver199 great explanation, thanks!
I got it clear, but you make me realize that I have a lot to learn about ICM and strategy in different tournament formats. 😳👉👈
Happy to help. If you only take one thing away from this thread, then please take away, that DoN and Fifty/50 are two very different formats. This seem to be missed by some of the people, who have replyed to your thread. As for the Fifty/50 on PokerStars the main difference to other SnG formats is, you never get to play shorthanded. This on one side makes them ideal for grinding, because the workload is more constant. But it also mean, you dont get practice with shorthanded play. So totally specialising in this format and never playing anything else is not advisable in my opinion.

Another advantage of the format is, that variance is lower. When I look at my graphs, downswings of more than 10 BIs are rare. A downside though is, there is sometimes not much action at the higher limits. This morning I played a session of only Fifty/50 SnGs. I played all the $25 and $10 games, which ran during the session, but I still ended up playing only 2 $25 games, 6 $10 games and 6 $5 games. So if your goal is to get your average buyin as high as possible, you need to be flexible about, which formats to play.
 
MrHachiman

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Very interesting facts!
I would love to learn more about how do you get to study a game like that.
Basically I taking as an example some regulars of these games. Looking at their results on websites like sharkscope I could see how much volume they were putting in per month and their benefits for having a reference.
Then I analyzed the payment structure also with a variance calculator , that gave me an approximation of what I would get the best and worst months, what was the expected average deviation. (To my surprise, the graphs were very linear.)
And finally, I calculated how much rakeback I would receive according to the volume I put in, this depended on each room and taking into account the rake.

Something else I forgot to mention is that these games have a scaling limit. Since from certain buyins like $15 or I would say $20 there is no longer any traffic in all the rooms. So there is a real ceiling you can reach by playing these games.
 
Andyreas

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This on one side makes them ideal for grinding, because the workload is more constant.
I gave them a shot today at $2 and $5 and it's an interesting format indeed, in my opinion.

I didn't really make any adaptions to my play and cashed-in 3/5 and only a small profit of less than $1 but I liked how fast the games were. Not super fast like you are inclined to play much looser but still fast since it's Turbo and only 4 players out of 8 need to bust and then you receive your payout. :D
 
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fundiver199

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Since from certain buyins like $15 or I would say $20 there is no longer any traffic in all the rooms. So there is a real ceiling you can reach by playing these games.
Absolutely. As I wrote in my previous post, on PokerStars its difficult to get your average buyin much higher than $10, if you want to grind only Fifty/50 SnGs. And its not only me. I now have 15k-17k on some of the SnG regulars in my tracker, and these guys, who have been hardcore grinders for years, are also still sometimes buying in to $5 games.
I didn't really make any adaptions to my play and cashed-in 3/5 and only a small profit of less than $1 but I liked how fast the games were. Not super fast like you are inclined to play much looser but still fast since it's Turbo and only 4 players out of 8 need to bust and then you receive your payout. :D
Yeah they are just turbo SnGs really. If you come from MTTs, you need to be a little more aware of the bubble, but thats quite easy to understand intuitively. If someone have 500 chips, and you have 2.000, its quite obvious, that you want them to bubble rather than yourself :)
 
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What do you guys think about this kind of sngs.

(1) Are they profitable long term?

(2) Is it ok to play them with the same strategy that in any other stt?

I just have a general idea of this kind of games in sites as PS and 888.
(3) Do you have any experience playing them in these or any other sites?
1, play 5-10k, after you will see
2, no
3, 888 is waste of time, the 10% fee is too much. ps i dont know, left long time ago

GG has 6 max, not exactly don, but 7% fee +rakeback, missions + daily leaderboard, personally i think the best option. there is always enough traffic. check it out, if u dont know:
https://ggpoker.co.uk/poker-games/spin-gold/
 
D0nk3y Hunt3r

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GG has 6 max, not exactly don, but 7% fee +rakeback, missions + daily leaderboard, personally i think the best option. there is always enough traffic. check it out, if u dont know:
https://ggpoker.co.uk/poker-games/spin-gold/
Spin&gold is completely different beast. Prize pool is being randomly chosen. For 6-max around 90% of the time only first and second places are being paid:
- in ~50% of time 1. = 4bi, 2. = 2bi,
- in ~50% of time 1. = 2.5bi, 2. ~=1.5bi,
on average then 1. = 3.25bi, 2. = 1.75bi.
For 3-max numbers look identical actually, because only first pays and this is for 3bi or 2bi respectively.

33% of field payed, on average 2.5bi. One should then get to 33% at least 40% of the time to break even (making 1.2 average place).
This is not counting bonuses, of course, 5 times in 6 mln first prize pays 20000bi. Still waiting to catch one of those.
 
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Spin&gold is completely different beast. Prize pool is being randomly chosen. For 6-max around 90% of the time only first and second places are being paid:
- in ~50% of time 1. = 4bi, 2. = 2bi,
- in ~50% of time 1. = 2.5bi, 2. ~=1.5bi,
on average then 1. = 3.25bi, 2. = 1.75bi.
For 3-max numbers look identical actually, because only first pays and this is for 3bi or 2bi respectively.

33% of field payed, on average 2.5bi. One should then get to 33% at least 40% of the time to break even (making 1.2 average place).
This is not counting bonuses, of course, 5 times in 6 mln first prize pays 20000bi. Still waiting to catch one of those.
if you grind, i don't see that much difference... spin&gold 6 max on GG vs 6 max DoN in other rooms. i play both, the significant +++ comes from rakebacks, leaderboards in both case... i dont play 3max at all, cant compare...

same here :) Still waiting to catch one of those.... :)
 
D0nk3y Hunt3r

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if you grind, i don't see that much difference... spin&gold 6 max on GG vs 6 max DoN in other rooms. i play both, the significant +++ comes from rakebacks, leaderboards in both case... i dont play 3max at all, cant compare...
I've put an attention to this, because of this:
because in a 9-man 60% of the price pool is distributed on the bubble, whereas in a Fifty/50 its only 50%.
..to the half of table
Spin&gold is completely different beast. Prize pool is being randomly chosen.
...
33% of field payed, on average 2.5bi. One should then get to 33% at least 40% of the time to break even (making 1.2 average place).
I agree that additional promotions help, without this it's kinda tough, can't beat them so far.
 
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fundiver199

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Are you using GTOwizard or similar solver? Is it possible to check also ICM there?
I am not using solvers, and as far as I know, they cannot take ICM into account, which makes them less usefull for SnGs or MTT final tables.
 
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