Does Anyone Else Feel Like a Rock?

[OMGITSOVER9K]

I started the hand with $40K, I get ~$5K in pre flop and there is $13K in the middle. Any reasonable C-bet is equal to or greater than 30% of my stack - that’s why. Not that I am saying it is right, but that’s why. My source with that approach is Jonathon Little.

who is Jonathan Little? betting this way makes it impossible for you to have bluffs, therefore you should only get called by better here. Even though we're never folding we might as well give the illusion that we are or else people can play perfectly against us

I didn’t think I was behind when he called; in fact I knew I was ahead because he delayed his call a measurable amount of time. I was just saying the “**** it, I call” scenario usually doesn’t work out for me; or you either I’m guessing. That’s the last thing I want to hear my opponent say – unless maybe he is drunk.

if you don't want him to call when you know he's behind then you're playing the wrong game

I just said I should have 4-bet, not how much. That said, I would have shoved, again, because any 4-bet is greater than 30% of my stack; I can only comfortable go to about $12K; I could have 4-bet to something like $20K, but my opponent has a 2:1 chip lead and I don’t think that’s a good idea; if the wrong flop comes out I’ve turned my hand into a pot committed bluff; I’d just get it in pre.

same as 1st paragraph

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

^ well that was played awful :/

This is a rude and unhelpful comment. I'm glad you at least expound on your rationale later.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

who is Jonathan Little? betting this way makes it impossible for you to have bluffs, therefore you should only get called by better here. Even though we're never folding we might as well give the illusion that we are or else people can play perfectly against us

Jonathan little is a successful tourney player who wrote a trilogy of poker books on tourney poker, I consider it to be the modern Harrington on Holdem.

OPs line while not perfect is far from terrible. 4betting preflop when you put someone's range at QQ+ and AK is a mistake. Even if he has the AK he is only flipping if you let him see all 5 cards. When I think somebody's range is strong I often prefer to see a safe flop with QQ or JJ then jam to deny the AK seeing all 5 cards.

The stack sizes were a bit awkward for this flop shove though. I would think a Cbet of about 7k is in order, which is about 20% of your remaining stack. You need a little more value from your strong overpair and shoving will usually let hands like A8 and 99 off the hook who would have paid 1 or 2 streets of value. As played your bet will usually only be called when you are beat. You got quite lucky that he called you so light and you shouldn't let it bum you out when you get your stack in on the flop as a 80% favorite and lose...that's just poker.

 

[duggs]

Jonathan little is a successful tourney player who wrote a trilogy of poker books on tourney poker, I consider it to be the modern Harrington on Holdem.

OPs line while not perfect is far from terrible. 4betting preflop when you put someone's range at QQ+ and AK is a mistake. Even if he has the AK he is only flipping if you let him see all 5 cards. When I think somebody's range is strong I often prefer to see a safe flop with QQ or JJ then jam to deny the AK seeing all 5 cards.

The stack sizes were a bit awkward for this flop shove though. I would think a Cbet of about 7k is in order, which is about 20% of your remaining stack. You need a little more value from your strong overpair and shoving will usually let hands like A8 and 99 off the hook who would have paid 1 or 2 streets of value. As played your bet will usually only be called when you are beat. You got quite lucky that he called you so light and you shouldn't let it bum you out when you get your stack in on the flop as a 80% favorite and lose...that's just poker.

Flatting QQ to a 3bet from QQ+ AK then donk jamming non A/K flops has to e the nut worst line in the world, fold out the only combos we beat when they have shit all equity

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Flatting QQ to a 3bet from QQ+ AK then donk jamming non A/K flops has to e the nut worst line in the world, fold out the only combos we beat when they have shit all equity

Ok. You can often spot the worst line in the world and aren't shy to tell anybody...but please tell us what is the BEST line in the world?

After all, we're here to learn and get better; not to be told how stupid we are.

I think I could tolerate negative, belittling posts better if they went on to include some helpful advice and a smiley at the end.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

This is a rude and unhelpful comment. I'm glad you at least expound on your rationale later.

did I hurt your feelings? shouldn't you be making threads about the difficulties of live poker vs online?

the guy can defend himself he doesn't need you to 'stand up for him'

 

[duggs]

Ok. You can often spot the worst line in the world and aren't shy to tell anybody...but please tell us what is the BEST line in the world?

After all, we're here to learn and get better; not to be told how stupid we are.

I think I could tolerate negative, belittling posts better if they went on to include some helpful advice and a smiley at the end.

personally i 4bet/call pre ainec, could be confined to call and c/c flops, or c/r flop.

plays i would do before yours,
Fold pre, shove pre, 4bet/call call pre and call on every single runout

but more importantly the range you assigned is absurd, he is 3betting every other hand.....

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

personally i 4bet/call pre ainec, could be confined to call and c/c flops, or c/r flop.

plays i would do before yours,
Fold pre, shove pre, 4bet/call call pre and call on every single runout

but more importantly the range you assigned is absurd, he is 3betting every other hand.....

now was that so hard? still forgot the smiley, but I won't hold it against you. baby steps!

 

[duggs]

now was that so hard? still forgot the smiley, but I won't hold it against you. baby steps!

don't be condescending

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

did I hurt your feelings? shouldn't you be making threads about the difficulties of live poker vs online?

the guy can defend himself he doesn't need you to 'stand up for him'

you didn't hurt my feelings...in case you can't tell I'm a fiesty little filly, and I obviously don't shy away from a lively debate.

that said, I can't help but notice you replied to an accusation of being rude and unhelpful with yet another rude and unhelpful comment.

I have thick skin...but I really don't think it is good for fostering a learning environment and generating meaningful debate when people post hands for review and they are ridiculed by forum regulars.

People don't usually bother to post brag hands where they played it great...they post hands that were tricky, or that they know they played sub-optimally. So it's kind of like kicking them when they are down to type a one line reply such as "you played that hand afwul" or "that is the worst line in the world" so if you're gonna post something like with a negative connotation, then it seems to me, in my humble opinion (which is probaly about to be mocked) that you should also post a little advice with it and/or a smiley or a funny little joke or something...

a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down...

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

OPs line while not perfect is far from terrible. 4betting preflop when you put someone's range at QQ+ and AK is a mistake. Even if he has the AK he is only flipping if you let him see all 5 cards. When I think somebody's range is strong I often prefer to see a safe flop with QQ or JJ then jam to deny the AK seeing all 5 cards.

its pretty close to terrible. flatting pre because you put their range on AK/QQ+ and then shoving a 8xx flop is basically the same as 4betting except you get AK to fold.

you didn't hurt my feelings...in case you can't tell I'm a fiesty little filly, and I obviously don't shy away from a lively debate.

that said, I can't help but notice you replied to an accusation of being rude and unhelpful with yet another rude and unhelpful comment.

I have thick skin...but I really don't think it is good for fostering a learning environment and generating meaningful debate when people post hands for review and they are ridiculed by forum regulars.

People don't usually bother to post brag hands where they played it great...they post hands that were tricky, or that they know they played sub-optimally. So it's kind of like kicking them when they are down to type a one line reply such as "you played that hand afwul" or "that is the worst line in the world" so if you're gonna post something like with a negative connotation, then it seems to me, in my humble opinion (which is probaly about to be mocked) that you should also post a little advice with it and/or a smiley or a funny little joke or something...

a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down...

I don't care what you are really, OP made the post to complain about getting sucked out on by 87o and I questioned his bad play.. it's nowhere near kicking him when he's down, he'll only improve if someone tells him he played it bad instead of 'aww unlucky bro, donks and their 87o right? '

so, no jokes

And there we go – I got beat by a ****ing donk again. I suppose I could have 4-bet all-in pre-flop but that’s not the path I chose against what I figured his range to be. Then, again I wasn’t even close on identifying his range – who knows, but this sucks – I can’t win, I don’t even know why I play.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

its pretty close to terrible. flatting pre because you put their range on AK/QQ+ and then shoving a 8xx flop is basically the same as 4betting except you get AK to fold.

I guess getting the AK to fold is my entire point of that line that I recommended. My thought is that playing QQ when you put their range on QQ+ and AK just sucks anyways, but to mitigate the damage you wait to see a flop before committing your entire stack.

If you hold QQ and you 4bet preflop vs. a range of QQ+ and AK then you only have ~38% equity when you get your chips in.

If you hold QQ and you bet on 8xx flop then you've got ~50% vs. that range, and with the fold equity you're doing a bit better. It's stack size dependent, I did state that the OPs stack size was too big for this strategy.
When stacks are deeper you can try to find out if you're beat through bets on multiple streets. But when you're shallower stacked the flop is where the magic will happen anyways and you give yourself one more way to win the hand those times when you are facing AK.

I figure it IS the same effect as 4betting preflop with the added benefit of getting AK to fold....or the added benefit of YOU get to fold when the flop is good for AK.

Out of the range of QQ+ and AK there are 6 ways to make KK, 6 ways to make AA and only 1 way to make QQ and 16 ways to make AK...so AK is the most likely thing they are holding as far as combinations. Those times that you are facing AA or KK it's just a bit of a cooler anyways and so let's not focus on the cooler aspect too much.

So, to me you design the line so that your QQ plays the best possible way it can against AK since that's the most likely thing they are holding and if they happen have KK or AA that's just poker and you're never getting away anyways on a 8xx flop with shallow stacks.

I don't understand why that's terrible...but I sincerely am asking to be shown the error in my thought process. I'm not trying to be bratty or sarcastic about it, I really want to know where I'm missing the lesson.

I suppose if you put them on AK you could check to induce....thereby gaining more value the times you are ahead and losing the same the times you are beat; but then you're also giving a free card and I guess I'm just not as comfortable calling as I am betting. That may be a bias that is causing an error in my game.

I welcome the critiques! maybe my line with QQ has been terrible all these years....

 

[duggs]

Well yea the thing is, you are right that AK has decent equity pre, but that equity v QQ is pretty terrible on the flop, as its seen 3 of its potential outs already and now only has a 6out draw twice. More over our equity v that range preflop is actually only that high because of including AK on all streets, putting money in post flop against all 12 combos of KK/AA is a really bad outcome and those AK combos we don't really even want them to fold.

But yea I would much rather check and call a bet and just give some of his range 6 outs rather than bet a Hand for protection against relatively little equity.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

maybe my line with QQ has been terrible all these years....

well, yeah

 

[ssbn743]

Jonathan little is a successful tourney player who wrote a trilogy of poker books on tourney poker, I consider it to be the modern Harrington on Holdem.

OPs line while not perfect is far from terrible. 4betting preflop when you put someone's range at QQ+ and AK is a mistake. Even if he has the AK he is only flipping if you let him see all 5 cards. When I think somebody's range is strong I often prefer to see a safe flop with QQ or JJ then jam to deny the AK seeing all 5 cards.

The stack sizes were a bit awkward for this flop shove though. I would think a Cbet of about 7k is in order, which is about 20% of your remaining stack. You need a little more value from your strong overpair and shoving will usually let hands like A8 and 99 off the hook who would have paid 1 or 2 streets of value. As played your bet will usually only be called when you are beat. You got quite lucky that he called you so light and you shouldn't let it bum you out when you get your stack in on the flop as a 80% favorite and lose...that's just poker.

I am here to learn (that said, like missjacki, I don’t appreciate the constant pretentious boorishness that runs rampant on this forum), but I can show you almost verbatim this line and situation in Little’s book. He uses pocket aces as his over pair example and the stack sizes are a lot less awkward, but he cites a very similar line in his book. Little, Jonathon “When you have between 40 and 27BBs” Secrets of Professional Tournament Poker, Volume 1, Fundamentals and How to Handle Varying Stack Sizes.

Also, while a C-bet of $7K is about 20% of my remaining stack, it’s about 30% of the stack I started the hand with; 30% of you starting stack is the specific number that Little says “get it in with”.

Not that he is right - but that's the strategy I have been using for about 6 months now. I wouldn't mind seeing what Little has to say on this hand, because if I read his book correctly, he likes it. Maybe his book is a ploy to turn his opponents into donks.

In which case, it’s certainly working

personally i 4bet/call pre ainec, could be confined to call and c/c flops, or c/r flop.

plays i would do before yours,

Fold pre, shove pre, 4bet/call call pre and call on every single runout

but more importantly the range you assigned is absurd, he is 3betting every other hand.....

The range I assigned may seem absurd and he was 3-betting a lot (every other hand is a stretch) but each time he 3-bet, after the hand was over he showed top premium hands. I swear he must have had AA or KK, or AK at least 12 times. The range I assigned was not at all absurd; In fact I really should have put AA and KK in there as well. But I said AK and JJ or less; I was to the point where I couldn’t give him credit for AA or KK because if he has one of those hands, again, then it’s just time for me to go home.

I wasn’t complaining about the situation, 80/20 is damn good, I was complaining about losing….again. For over a year now, in every big tournament I have played, I routinely get it in really good and somehow lose anyway. I’ve lost the faith, and you can say whatever you want about my line and how terribly I played a hand, but it is apparent based on several years of observation, that blind luck, no rational thought process, and a completely lack of any skill is what it really takes to win a poker tournament.

 

[duggs]

hate the books logic on shoving, i haven't seen any good winning mtt reg advocate doing that. you are handcuffing yourself.

you can't say he is 3betting nearly constantly and also got dealt monsters the whole time, at the very least give him an air range.

sample size of tournaments? i mean if you are going to insult me and call me pretentious at least do it directly...

 

[ssbn743]

hate the books logic on shoving, i haven't seen any good winning mtt reg advocate doing that. you are handcuffing yourself.
you can't say he is 3betting nearly constantly and also got dealt monsters the whole time, at the very least give him an air range.

sample size of tournaments? i mean if you are going to insult me and call me pretentious at least do it directly...

Actually Duggs, and surprisingly, I wasn't refer to you this time; (though if you thought I was then maybe I should have) in fact I wasn't referring to anyone, just a general observation about this forum - go ahead, call me a liar.

I like a lot of things about Little's advice; this is one where I can see the opposite view point, however. Still, though, it takes a lot of the guess work out of the situation.

And really, he was 3-betting constantly and showed monsters every time, yes really. In fact, he was showing every hand he played, and they were all monsters.

Granted my sample size, while pretty large in quantity, it not very large in quality. My average buy-in is $235 and I only play in 2, maybe 3, +$1000 tournaments each year.

 

[duggs]

cool ill refrain from posting on your hands in the future then

 

[MediaBLITZ]

but I can show you almost verbatim this line and situation in Little’s book. He uses pocket aces as his over pair example and the stack sizes are a lot less awkward, but he cites a very similar line in his book. Little, Jonathon “When you have between 40 and 27BBs” Secrets of Professional Tournament Poker, Volume 1, Fundamentals and How to Handle Varying Stack Sizes.

Also, while a C-bet of $7K is about 20% of my remaining stack, it’s about 30% of the stack I started the hand with; 30% of you starting stack is the specific number that Little says “get it in with”.

Not that he is right - but that's the strategy I have been using for about 6 months now. I wouldn't mind seeing what Little has to say on this hand, because if I read his book correctly, he likes it. Maybe his book is a ploy to turn his opponents into donks.

In which case, it’s certainly working

The range I assigned may seem absurd and he was 3-betting a lot (every other hand is a stretch) but each time he 3-bet, after the hand was over he showed top premium hands. I swear he must have had AA or KK, or AK at least 12 times. The range I assigned was not at all absurd; In fact I really should have put AA and KK in there as well. But I said AK and JJ or less; I was to the point where I couldn’t give him credit for AA or KK because if he has one of those hands, again, then it’s just time for me to go home.

Okay, okay, have all of Little's books and have even had one on one coaching with him - and yes even agree with him. But you are taking what he said and making a rule out of it. With so many ifs ands or buts you can't really afford to do that. You show that hand to Little and he's going to #1) whip out the Nash Equilibrium on you, #2) determine that because of your Rock image you are going to get 3-bet a lot, #3) find out where in the tourney you are at, #4) explain smooth calling preflop with AA is very different from QQ (ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE PUT THE GUY ON AN A), #5) encourage a 4-bet (which would be a shove as it is over 30% of your stack) - not necessarily in this order.

This thread started with you being a Rock and it being a problem for you. This hand is a great example. You can stay a rock (like I posted earlier) but you have to get way more aggressive with your premiums. You played this hand pretty passively because (I assume) you were scared of an A or K on the flop. You can't play that way in the later stages of a tournament. Can't be faint of heart or you open the door for stuff like this happening. Unfortunately we know the result of this hand, but had you posted this as hand without results I can assure you the resounding advice would be to 4-bet that hot shot and break it off in his *ss. QQ is to vulnerable to smooth call with the way Little is suggesting with AA (which is not vulnerable to any over cards).

So stay a Rock my friend, just get more aggressive on your betting when you have QQ+.

And BTW, you do understand this guy was showing those 3-bet hands to set up for nonsense just like this later in the tournament. I guarantee he was just wanting you (THE ROCK) to go away when he bet 78o. He hits top pair, has put you on AK, AQ or small pair (otherwise you would have 4-bet him if it was AA, KK, QQ) and decides, "Aww, **** it, I’ll call."

I do not see him as a donk at all, and as much as you would like to (seeing as how you lost the hand), you thinking he is a donk is not going to serve you very well if you can't get your thinking to his level. But he is aggressive and willing to risk ruin to get ahead with a lot less than you are willing to - remember that the next time he is at your table.

MissJacki - please refrain from derailing threads - if you have issue with someone please PM them in the future

 

[ssbn743]

Okay, okay, have all of Little's books and have even had one on one coaching with him - and yes even agree with him. But you are taking what he said and making a rule out of it. With so many ifs ands or buts you can't really afford to do that. You show that hand to Little and he's going to #1) whip out the Nash Equilibrium on you, #2) determine that because of your Rock image you are going to get 3-bet a lot, #3) find out where in the tourney you are at, #4) explain smooth calling preflop with AA is very different from QQ (ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE PUT THE GUY ON AN A), #5) encourage a 4-bet (which would be a shove as it is over 30% of your stack) - not necessarily in this order.

This thread started with you being a Rock and it being a problem for you. This hand is a great example. You can stay a rock (like I posted earlier) but you have to get way more aggressive with your premiums. You played this hand pretty passively because (I assume) you were scared of an A or K on the flop. You can't play that way in the later stages of a tournament. Can't be faint of heart or you open the door for stuff like this happening.

Unfortunately we know the result of this hand, but had you posted this as hand without results I can assure you the resounding advice would be to 4-bet that hot shot and break it off in his *ss. QQ is to vulnerable to smooth call with the way Little is suggesting with AA (which is not vulnerable to any over cards).

So stay a Rock my friend, just get more aggressive on your betting when you have QQ+.

And BTW, you do understand this guy was showing those 3-bet hands to set up for nonsense just like this later in the tournament. I guarantee he was just wanting you (THE ROCK) to go away when he bet 78o. He hits top pair, has put you on AK, AQ or small pair (otherwise you would have 4-bet him if it was AA, KK, QQ) and decides, "Aww, **** it, I’ll call."

I do not see him as a donk at all, and as much as you would like to (seeing as how you lost the hand), you thinking he is a donk is not going to serve you very well if you can't get your thinking to his level. But he is aggressive and willing to risk ruin to get ahead with a lot less than you are willing to - remember that the next time he is at your table.

MissJacki - please refrain from derailing threads - if you have issue with someone please PM them in the future

I am in no way condoning the way I played this hand – as I have said many times I am here to learn; and I’m sure Little would laugh at the fact I even used his name. I immediately regretted flat calling the pre-flop 3-bet right at the table, but once I did, I didn’t feel that I played the rest of the hand awful at all.

The fact that he was showing every top premium hand that he 3-bet was the exact reason I smooth called pre flop. I knew damn well, he was going to take advantage of the information he had been giving away – and I also knew that he would probably do it against me. With that added to the equation, a 3-bet flat call shows some merit, I want him to put me on AK – and Little’s guidelines (even if I am wrongly applying them) sell it to a “T”; it looks like an AK donk-shove on the flop.

That said, I still wish I had just 4-bet pre-flop. That may be slightly results orientated though, would I still wish I had 4-bet if I had won to 80/20? I think yes, but the smooth call has some merit IMO specifically because my opponent will put me on the AK, AQ, or Ax range; after the flop comes out he may even add <77 to that range as well.

The player that beat me is a quality player (though I don’t appreciate the F*&^ it, I’ll call speech) that I have played many times over the years. I know he regards me as rock, as most do, and I have never denied that I am a tight player – and that image has worked to my advantage against this very opponent in the past. I know I said he was a donk, but I was a little upset at the time, he knows what he’s doing – and I lost a tough hand. It just really sucks to lose an 80/20 in a major tournament in a perfect situation; even if I misplayed the hand, 80/20’s for stacks are relatively hard to come by.

Basically, I was just bitching! But I would like to try to learn something here. By the book, this may not be optimal, but I don’t have huge problem with how I played this hand when all information is considered (and I probably didn’t put all that info in the OP either).

 

[MediaBLITZ]

With that added to the equation, a 3-bet flat call shows some merit, I want him to put me on AK – and Little’s guidelines (even if I am wrongly applying them) sell it to a “T”; it looks like an AK donk-shove on the flop.

Basically, I was just bitching! But I would like to try to learn something here. By the book, this may not be optimal, but I don’t have huge problem with how I played this hand when all information is considered (and I probably didn’t put all that info in the OP either).

Okay, so you got exactly what you wanted, correct? (I understand it was not the result you wanted). Rejoice - well played. I'm serious, you know this opponent and no one else in this thread can say that. Played him like a fiddle and got exactly the reaction you laid out in your scenario.

But I gotta wonder about that Rock image when you can actually sell a donk shove on the flop???

 

[ssbn743]

Okay, so you got exactly what you wanted, correct? (I understand it was not the result you wanted). Rejoice - well played. I'm serious, you know this opponent and no one else in this thread can say that. Played him like a fiddle and got exactly the reaction you laid out in your scenario.

But I gotta wonder about that Rock image when you can actually sell a donk shove on the flop???

Well, yeah…I didn’t really think of it like that. He did call me with a pair eights and a seven kicker; I see two possibilities:

1. He put me on AK, AQ, or Ax
2. He wasn’t even thinking about my hand

Both likely lead to the “f%^& it I’ll call” approach. I suppose neither one has much to do with my image; I would say the fact that I raised UTG is what provides the rock image in his mind; also, rock is not really what I was thinking, more like tight; splitting hairs maybe but…

Using Little’s guidelines, however, made this happen like it did; I didn’t do all this thinking and analysis at the table. I simply raised, flat called the 3-bet because for some reason I thought I could extract more value from a light 3-bet, realized I was going to be investing >30% of my stack and shoved – the rest is history; all this analysis and trying to ascertain his mindset is postmortem. I wish I was good enough to do all this at the table in real-time.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

I wish I was good enough to do all this at the table in real-time.

Honestly, it is why hand review is so critical to getting better. After a while you do get good enough to do this at the table - probably the tough part is slowing down and taking the time to do it while at the table (as well as away).

RE: Little
He is not the end all for tournament strategy. In fact if he was a big slice it wouldn't be more than 20% of the strategies you need to do well in tournaments. That applies to any book/teacher/coach, not just Little. Even though you played it to the tee for Little - Harrington is going to say QQ is just too vulnerable to not 4-bet PF. Both advices are generalizations. Neither covers all the ifs, ands or buts of a particular hand, at a particular table, in a particular town with particular players. But in this case you played in a particular manner to achieve a particular result on a particular street - objective one obtained - the end result was just not what you wanted. BUT what will haunt you is if you had 4-bet that situation would probably have not come up. It was the choice/chance you made to basically run a stop and go play on him.

I will pass this on as it has changed the way I look at "slow playing" JJ+. It's only one pair. By the time the river comes it will probably still only be one pair. The fact of the matter is you only have two outs beginning to end to improve your hand. Your opponent? Who knows? If he doesn't also have a pocket pair, outs for his hand is going to fluctuate greatly after the flop. It is not out of the realm of possibility for him to hit a flop that grants him 15-20+ outs. And if not the flop, the turn. It is this that makes the 4-bet shove appealing because of the fold equity that may get changed on the flop - as it did in your case. But again, another generalization, but not one discussed much in the books. It leads players with that big pair into thinking they got sucked out on when the truth is it was only one pair and it stayed one pair.

But continue with Little and get him down - not to play like him but to stretch your thinking and to identify those that do. Then do the same with Harrington, Negreanu, Gordon, Etc. By that time you will playing like you and no one else.