A mate told me that some players tend to take a lot of time to slow the game down in a big tournament. The idea is to wait for players to go out to have a better chance of reaching the prize spots.

Is that a strategy worth taking, or does it spoil the fun for the rest of the players on the table ?

Poker should be fun. Probably fun only if you win something perhaps.

Originally Posted by AndrewTH

A friend told me that some players tend to take a long time to slow down the game in a big tournament. The idea is to wait for the players to leave to have a better chance of reaching the places.

Is it a strategy worth following or spoiling the fun for the rest of the players at the table?

Poker should be fun. Probably fun only if you win something, maybe.

In my humble opinion, if other players get angry it should be done.

Slowing down the game has a time and a place. I think most players who have played poker online for a decent amount of time understand when it happens and don't care.

Originally Posted by AndrewTH

A mate told me that some players tend to take a lot of time to slow the game down in a big tournament. The idea is to wait for players to go out to have a better chance of reaching the prize spots.

Is that a strategy worth taking, or does it spoil the fun for the rest of the players on the table ?

Of this is perfect strategy not just for big tournaments but for also whatever freeroll. Maybe even Cardchat ones

well, I see most short stacks stall a little near the bubble and I do too.
you might be watching another table and see you're playing twice as many hands as they are.
time banks are our option and you really can't get mad at someone for using it to their advantage.
although it is annoying when someone counts it down every time it is still their option so I don't let it affect me.
but for your question I think it is a fair option in a big tourney, I wouldn't count my clock to the end but a few seconds each hand seems reasonable. JMO

I only do it to make people lose their patience if I see it being the right call and helping me out in the future. It can also frustrate low stacks and next couple of hands they end up going all in out of position or something.

Ha ha ha ha ... Rolling around on the floor and laughing my whatever of ... LOL

Love all your replies and reasoning.

Anything to get the upper hand especially in a tourney is helpful. Cheers

I think it depends on the stage of the tournament slowing down the game for no reason is just annoying sometimes, but close to the bubble is totally acceptable.

Originally Posted by AndrewTH

A mate told me that some players tend to take a lot of time to slow the game down in a big tournament. The idea is to wait for players to go out to have a better chance of reaching the prize spots.

Is that a strategy worth taking, or does it spoil the fun for the rest of the players on the table ?

Poker should be fun. Probably fun only if you win something perhaps.

This is a normal strategy. I've done it myself many times to get to the prizes. It doesn't break the rules, so why not?

Using time bank is definitely a strategy that when used right can help you make the money in a tournament. You do need to keep an eye on the blind levels though as sometimes it can hurt you if the blinds raise before your big blind.
Will do this also if I know a short stack is about to be the BB

Yes, a lot of players do slow play in tournaments.

Slowing down the play in a tournament is not a nice thing to do. I have seen people time down every move every hand early in a tournament. The one exception I can understand is at the money bubble. If your short just trying to get into the money I can at least understand it. What does make me laugh is when we are playing hand for hand and someone still times down trying to get into the money and you know they are not paying attention to the game.

Its definitely not worth it. If you feel you play better than the average of the table, you need to play more hands. If not you will likely get shortstack and blind out eventually. I could understand it if you are near the bubble, or near a big payjump if any, but its not advisable, at least I see it as a waste of hands that you need to play.

My opinion is that everyone evaluates this tournament in their own way. For some, this may be a regular daily tournament and they will play a little more relaxed. Someone dreamed of such a tournament and got selected for it via satellite and on a bubble such a player will wait, will slow down the game and take less risk. So everyone has their own story and style of play ....

If it's on the money or the final one, why not...

Stalling the action near the bubble is part of a solid tournament strategy. If for instance a min-cash is 27$, then I am not going to let someone sitting with almost no chips at a different table win that money at my expense, just because someone at my table is an action junkie.

Its important though to understand, when you gain something by stalling, and when you dont. As someone said already, you see people stalling, when the tournament is in hand for hand mode, and that of course makes no sense. You also see people stalling, when its obvious, they need more chips to cash or ladder up. For instance if there are 60 players left, and the next payjump is at 26. Then a short or even middling stack should try to chip up rather than outlast 34 other players by not playing.

On the other hand if its now down to 27 players, and there is no hand for hand, then it would be kind of dumb to go all-in without first using your entire chip bank. Say you min-raised AK with a 18BB stack and someone, who has you covered, has moved all in. Then you need to make the call, even you are not loving it. But if you wait as long as possible, maybe someone has busted at another table, and you end with a higher price, if you lose. So in this particular situation you should probably spend up your entire time bank before calling.

Originally Posted by Luvepoker

Slowing down the play in a tournament is not a nice thing to do. I have seen people time down every move every hand early in a tournament. The one exception I can understand is at the money bubble. If your short just trying to get into the money I can at least understand it. What does make me laugh is when we are playing hand for hand and someone still times down trying to get into the money and you know they are not paying attention to the game.

I totally agree with you its misserable to play game with somebody who is slowing game every hand :/

Poker is a game for money and you should get prizes at any cost, no matter how you do it. Of course, within the aisles of the rules !!!

While yeah its ok to do, if you're just slowing the game down to try and make it over the bubble because you're the short stack the bigger issue is you should be putting yourself in positions so that you aren't the short stack to begin with.

Understandable around money bubble or money ladder ups. Final table as well when you would want to take all the time you can get for decisions.

Less understandable in any other time during a tournament when I would call it bad etiquette.

I do it once in a while close to the bubble but the people who just
sit out I hate! There should be a limit of so many hands that you can miss then your game is folded. 888poker stills lets players win a hand
even when they are sitting out. (not right)

While I think there are a couple situations in which this is actually a legitimate strategy and I understand why some people intentionally slow down the game, I generally view it as bad poker and often see it mis-applied.

The situations in which I think this is a legitimate strategy are: a) when you know it is tilting someone and making them make bad decisions, and b) when you are playing at a table with nit extraordinaires. The first point is pretty self-explanatory, but I'll elaborate on the second. If everyone at your table is only playing about 10% of the range (which isn't common, but I've run into it a few times) and you can't win a hand unless you have the absolute nuts, it behooves you to slow down the game with maximum turn lengths to force the nits to play a wider range because they can't sustain folding all hands except premiums as the blinds increase without a fast pace of play.

To those that are using maximum turn lengths to fold till the money/next pay jump or to try to blind out the short stacks are employing bad logic. If you're a short stack, you're shooting yourself in the foot because you are literally blinding yourself out when you could have played faster and at least had the chance at a decent hand to double up and not be in a losing position anymore. If you're a large stack, the increasing blinds are advantageous to you relative to the short stacks at your table, but you're still falling behind other chip leaders that are actually playing the game; furthermore, you're also shooting yourself in the foot by reducing the number of hands you are seeing each blind level. Ultimately, for anyone doing this to increase their payout, you'd be better off actually playing the game and going for a higher placement. If the min cash is that important to you, it's probably too big of a tournament for your bankroll.

Originally Posted by sundizzel

To those that are using maximum turn lengths to fold till the money/next pay jump or to try to blind out the short stacks are employing bad logic. If you're a short stack, you're shooting yourself in the foot because you are literally blinding yourself out when you could have played faster and at least had the chance at a decent hand to double up and not be in a losing position anymore. If you're a large stack, the increasing blinds are advantageous to you relative to the short stacks at your table, but you're still falling behind other chip leaders that are actually playing the game; furthermore, you're also shooting yourself in the foot by reducing the number of hands you are seeing each blind level. Ultimately, for anyone doing this to increase their payout, you'd be better off actually playing the game and going for a higher placement. If the min cash is that important to you, it's probably too big of a tournament for your bankroll.

The reason for stalling the action near the bubble is ICM related. Lets say you have a 20BB stack and this is near the tournament average with many players on your table having around the same. However with 3 players more needing to go out before the money, another table has 5 players with each only 4-5BB, who are all trying to fold their way to a min-cash.

In that situation its really bad for you to run into a situation, where you need to play a "flip" for your 20BB, like if for instance you pick up AK, and another player pick up JJ. If you lose, you are out without cashing, and if you win, you did not dubble your expected value (EV) in the tournament. Instead a lot of the EV of the busted player has gone to the short stacks, since they are now more likely to cash.

So if you accept, that your table plays twice as many hands per hour as the table of the short stacks, you are hurting your EV in the tournament. And this is why, stalling makes sense as a middling stack. The only situation, where it does not make sense near the bubble, is, if you are in a position to "bully" other players. Like for instance if the two players on your direct left are short. Then you probably want to play as many hands as possible and try to steal their blinds.

I've made plenty of small cashes in games where I had little chance by stalling. Better to win something than nothing if things haven't been going well. If I'm at a table full of sitouts with only one or two big stack players stealing I'll do it as well.

I've also used it to tilt those rats that steal our passwords. If I get on a table full of unknowns then I sometimes play the clock every hand.

I am one who hates slow play,no matter what the reason.Taking hours upon hours to play a tourney is terrible.I can understand a big buy in,or a high stakes tourny taking longer,but people play a dollar or less and takes hrs to complete.All should have a short clock in order to respond.A extra time bank,for a shorter time is also ok,but when its gone,no more extra time.

This is a common situation in poker, deliberate delaying time, there have been cases when they made a re-raise on one blind, so that the trade went one more round, such tricks are always present during tournaments, if you are annoyed by such trifles, I think you need to work on psychology and patience.

slowing the game down, makes no difference, i can play at a fast pace or a slow pace

In tournaments i think the best thing is to play more hands, thus I would’t waste time because blinds are rising. I can considerate it if that can determine if I get to the prizes or not, bet else there’s no point on wasting time in my opinion

Great read above on all your various insights.

And when my next question was ' at which stage in a tournament that this is likely to be used logically. ' LOL

A 'tool' in a toolbox that one can take out when needed at the 'right time'.

The 'right time' is really highly debatable, but within logic, isn't it ?

Else, it's 'monkey sees, monkey does' scenario without understanding that it is actually hurting their chance to chip up before the killer blinds.

The beauty of this great game is... you are free to play it any way you like.

This includes pace of play too. This is the reason there are time banks for online poker, and in the live poker environment we have TD's (Tournament Director) who act as the time bank for slower players. We'll ignore live play since it tends to be a little bit messier and annoying with real people face-to-face. Slow playing in live poker is a much worse offense than it is at online poker.

Since most of us here probably play online poker, let's just stick to that... and since we have a time bank that can be used up, each player always has the right to stall whenever they choose to, and for whatever reason. If they stall too long, or stall too many times in a row, they will run out of their time bank and then they cannot delay the game any further. So why worry about such players? It is their right to take their time, and quite honestly they could be doing it for many reasons - perhaps they do a lot of thinking when they play, or perhaps they have a crying infant that they're trying to tend to while playing poker - since you can't see the players, you can't make assumptions about the reason. Just let the time bank do its job, keep your patience, and don't let it bother you or get you off your game, that might be the reason they're stalling, to get you emotional. Don't give in, keep a level head at all times in this game. Good luck!!

Originally Posted by fundiver199

In that situation its really bad for you to run into a situation, where you need to play a "flip" for your 20BB, like if for instance you pick up AK, and another player pick up JJ. If you lose, you are out without cashing, and if you win, you did not dubble your expected value (EV) in the tournament. Instead a lot of the EV of the busted player has gone to the short stacks, since they are now more likely to cash.

Let me preface this by saying I don't know much about ICM, and I know you're more learned in the ways of poker than I. I'm not arguing--just trying to understand.

Bottom line: you don't have to flip when you're 3 away from the money. Playing your hands and not flipping aren't mutually exclusive as long as no one has all-in'd pre-flop, in which case you can fold, rather than take the max turn length. Let's say you have AK and someone has already jammed. Easy fold if that's what you want to do. Let's say you have AK and open raise and then someone jams. Still an easy fold if that's what you want to do--3 BB down the drain, oh well, you're still triple the short stacks, and if everyone were really playing that nitty, your open raise might have a chance of getting through anyways, in which case you've sent a few extra big blinds' worth of padding your own direction.

If you do wind up flipping and winning, I don't understand your point about not doubling EV in the tournament and the busted players' EV going to the short stacks. In fact, I've never heard of EV as applied to a tournament or a player specifically--I've heard it only as applied to hands (don't see how it can be calculated without equities unless you're using chips stacks as compared to total chips in play as equity, which seems like a poor measure at best; furthermore, payout structures would greatly complicate any type of tournament EV calculations because of the inherent volatility of the game). In the situation where you lose, obviously you're right, which is why it's ideal to avoid a flip. In the situation where you win, you're now no longer a middling stack, are virtually guaranteed to get ITM and probably deeper, and are one position closer to the money. Regarding the busted players' EV going to the short stacks because they are now more likely to cash--who cares? You got the busted players' chips, and the short stacks are more than likely going to be eliminated before the money or shortly after ITM anyways. I don't see why you have to act the enforcer of who makes the money and doesn't when the same number of players will be making the money. In fact, it would be more advantageous to have the short stacks make the money by that logic because it would be easier to pressure them and ladder up further, especially if you had doubled up previously.

Anyways, I appreciate the response and look forward to your next one that I may learn something new!

- Sundizzel

Originally Posted by AndrewTH

some players tend to take a lot of time to slow the game down in a big tournament.
Is that a strategy worth taking, or does it spoil the fun for the rest of the players on the table ?

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Stalling the action near the bubble is part of a solid tournament strategy.
Its important though to understand, when you gain something by stalling, and when you dont. As someone said already, you see people stalling, when the tournament is in hand for hand mode, and that of course makes no sense. You also see people stalling, when its obvious, they need more chips to cash or ladder up.

On the other hand if its now down to 27 players, and there is no hand for hand, then it would be kind of dumb to go all-in without first using your entire chip bank. Say you min-raised AK with a 18BB stack and someone, who has you covered, has moved all in. Then you need to make the call, even you are not loving it. But if you wait as long as possible, maybe someone has busted at another table, and you end with a higher price, if you lose. So in this particular situation you should probably spend up your entire time bank before calling.

Originally Posted by sundizzel

While I think there are a couple situations in which this is actually a legitimate strategy and I understand why some people intentionally slow down the game, I generally view it as bad poker and often see it mis-applied.
.

Originally Posted by AndrewTH

Great read above on all your various insights.
And when my next question was ' at which stage in a tournament that this is likely to be used logically. ' LOL
A 'tool' in a toolbox that one can take out when needed at the 'right time'.
The 'right time' is really highly debatable, but within logic, isn't it ?
Else, it's 'monkey sees, monkey does' scenario without understanding that it is actually hurting their chance to chip up before the killer blinds.

Originally Posted by sundizzel

In fact, I've never heard of EV as applied to a tournament or a player specifically--I've heard it only as applied to hands (don't see how it can be calculated without equities unless you're using chips stacks as compared to total chips in play as equity, which seems like a poor measure at best;
- Sundizzel

Miss-application of any stalling measure is surely something that is quite aggrivating - for sure, although stalling pre bubble is just part of the game.

The one that is quite silly is the players who will shove all but one big blind in - in an attempt to - I don't know really - and they obviously don't either, because it is hardly ever done when there is only one spot left before a pay jump or bubble, which would be the exact right time to deploy this stalling strategy.

I am not ashamed to say at all - I intentionally let my timer go all the way to 1-2 seconds on every turn - on the last level of late registration. This time reduces the amount of hands short stacks get to see, reducing their ability to get a 'quick' double up, or shove, lose and rebuy. This is a strategy to battle against those who think late registering at the last minute can be a good strategy. Ya better hope you don't end up on my table - you will see 10 fewer hands during this last level of late registration.


Not to answer directly for fundiver, but what I believe he was referring to was a players minimum expected value. If you join a tournament - any player has a reasonable expected value of 2x the buyin - at minimum, because that is often the min-cash.
There is no reason to go all in with a sub premium hand when your chip stack is one that will make that min-cash - without playing one hand, while other players do not have the same EV because they are at the bottom of the leaderboard - and will have to battle just to make min-cash.

Yes, I agree with many, sometimes I do it myself, but sometimes such a game brings me out.