Complaining about freerolls

Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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I see LOTS of posts on this forum regarding tournament poker based on freerolls and freeroll hands - most of which are honestly results oriented posts - and tho I take the time to respond to be helpful - if you have ever read one of my posts, you will know I have a tendency to give it to you straight and not to sugar coat anything simply to keep your feelings in check and not come across harsh. The reality is poker is tough, unforgiving and with all the resources available more people play better today than ever before - if you dont want to put in the time or effort to become better - you will remain a losing (or break even) player forever. Such is the reality of poker - if you want to become successful you will need thick skin I promise you.

That being said, amongst all the whining of the bad beats and the lost hands when we got our money in good -- there's still a fair number who turn out and claim the platform they're playing on is rigged for action... again, for me personally this is a piss poor excuse used as a crutch to prop up bad players unwilling to take a good look at themselves in the mirror - I know, I have been this player before. As I said, poker is hard and if you aren't willing to work for it, you will likely get left in the dust.

Lots of folks complaining about building rolls from freerolls, always looking for new ones to hop into, asking where the best player pools are so they don't have to deal with the sh*t show of most freerolls ,- in reality, all of them are full of these kinds of actions! You cannot escape them!! So either you are ok with the atmosphere or you are not - i cant make that choice for you.

Nonetheless, I have said this countless times, if you are playing for the fun of the game and you just enjoy what you do - then playing these is no big deal and you shouldn't worry about losing in them alot -- because in tournament poker you are going to lose much more than you are going to win! However, IF you're goal is to become good at poker, to build a roll that you can attempt to make some extra money with then I HIGHLY encourage you to pick a site of your choice - throw down a deposit for a micro stakes bankroll and have at it!! You need to have confidence in yourself when you play poker - you're time is also worth something at the end of the day. So why play 4+ hours to win $20 when you can spend $1‐$2 on a game and play for $60‐$100 up top? Some games will even have $250+ up top for less than a $2 buy in! Spend your time and energy chasing that dream instead of investing nothing -- playing your best and then getting bent out of shape because your deep run only got you paid 15c.

The freeroll complaint department is full! The site is rampant with it lol. Is that a bad thing? Not really, because people are playing the game of poker and some of them are trying to take it seriously - im just trying to offer some perspective on what seems to be a large focus of tournament poker here on CC. Should you quit freerolls altogether?? Of course not, you will still find me floating around in the occasional BOL or intertops freerolls once in a while -- all im saying is if you want to take this game seriously, don't allow yourself to get stuck in the freerolls. Spinning your wheels day in and day out for months will tax you mentally, and even when you do win the rewards are pretty lack luster and don't give us the satisfaction of winning nearly as much as a real money tournament. So my advice is have fun, play the game for the enjoyment - and if you decide to take it more seriously - then have some faith in yourself! Make a deposit to kick off a micro roll and grind on it for a while! Taking the leap is challenging - just remember the cardinal rule and don't deposit more than you are willing to lose.

For those of you who decide to take the leap and do want to take poker seriously -- remember to invest in yourself! First thing off the bat i recommended buying Poker Tracker 4. The HUD function you can learn and use later - the main benefit you will get from this is it will log all of your hands and stats so that you may review them later. This is such an invaluable tool - I don't think you can learn and grow in online poker without it. Its never been easier to mark weird hands, pinpoint leaks, run icm spots, and review entire tournaments. The second thing I suggest is to find a group of like minded people - and study the game once or twice a week! If you want to get good, you will HAVE to put in the time.

Instead of posting a long ramble let's simplify things with a list of what I think you should do if you want to take the game seriously...

-Buy PT4 - this tool is a must have and its only a one time cost. Invest in yourself and don't look back.

-Use the free tools.

-Study study study!!

-Put in proper volume -- variance is unwavering and to help fade variance you will need to play at LEAST 100 MTTs per month. I work a full time job 5 days a week and I smash this requirement every month - so it can be done if you are dedicated enough.

-Use good game selection - again tournaments are full of variance. Find the best bang for your buck, and play the hell out of it! Remember, its easier to beat smaller fields than it is to run the larger fielded marathons.

-Use good BRM - if you dont, you will surely go broke. And that's fine, it happens, but know when to drop down and know when to slow the bleeding.

-Invest in paid programs - things like ICMizer and Pairrd or possibly a PokerCoaching or Upswing membership for a year.

-Once you reach buy ins of $55 and up you should probably buy PIO solver. Its not that everyone is playing that good of a GTO strategy...but all the good regs at this level allllll use this tool. There are some more advanced solvers on the way as well so this is likely going to change in the future.

-When you've done everything you think you can do in your power to achieve your level of play, but still want to keep growing -- hire a coach. Best thing I ever did for my game.

For those of you finding it hard to get a study group together -- I have offered MANY times on this site to do a free hand history review on live stream for anyone who chose to submit me such and no one has ever taken me up on it - the offer is there. All you have to do is swallow your pride and shoot me a message and I will be happy to do the review and twitch stream it as promised.

Now that my final advice for success is out of the way -- thanks to everyone who reads this in full, I appreciate your time. To all of you crying about freerolls and your KKs not holding up vs 5 all ins....stop it lol dont be results oriented and don't get stuck in the freerolls forever!!! Thanks again, take care and good luck at the tables.
 
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karl coakley

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+1

Lol,

People complain about beats in free games...you get what you pay for.

Play a 20 or 50.00 buy in and i promise your shove won't be called with 72os . No matter how many times it's explained if you don't have anything at risk who cares what you call with.

As the OP is suggesting, deposit 20.00 and play with something at risk. If you can't afford 20.00 maybe your time is better spent on working a 2nd job rather than hours on a free roll to win a dollar.

You will never become a better player on free rolls because it's not poker. This is really designed to draw in players. (I will exempt the CC free roll. The field is small and you can win a few bucks in a reasonable time.)
 
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Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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I second the fact that CC has some of the best freerolls around due to controlled player fields and payout amounts. Tough to beat those ones - which is why as I mentioned, to support that you will see me turn up in them from time to time
 
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Johnny78B

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I second the fact that CC has some of the best freerolls around due to controlled player fields and payout amounts. Tough to beat those ones - which is why as I mentioned, to support that you will see me turn up in them from time to time
Agree with you. CC freerolls are the best one, skills level of players are very high. Even when you have a bad beats you can only blame yourself because in most of time here it is only your mistakes. Really I am very enjoying here to play because in CC freerolls and league games you are improving your skills. In other freerolls with huge numbers of players you can only spoil it.
 
F

fundiver199

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Of course freerolls are not just freerolls. Some have reasonable blind intervals and a reasonable price pool compared to the number of players. Not playing these would be kind of silly, since they can both be decent practice, and they are also essentially free money. The CC "platinum" freerolls fits that bill, and in general it will always be those with some kind of access control, that are worth playing.

The CC "bronze" freerolls essentially have no access control, since all people need is to open a free account on CC, so these certainly fall in the circus gategory, which is just a waste of time. And so do events like the current daily 200$ on 888 Poker, which see around 2.000 participant and have 2 minute blind intervals. The short blind intervals mean, that after 10 minutes most hands are 3-5 way all-in preflop, and you are basically just hoping to get lucky.

However even if you play only the better freerolls, there are still a number of issues with "building a bankroll" solely from freerolls. Its difficult to get volume, since you have to sit around and wait for the freeroll to start. So even ignoring the other problems it will take more time for you to get experience and build your skills, because you are simply not playing enough.

That can be somewhat mitigated by playing on multible sites, but you are still a slave of the freeroll schedules, and playing multible sites is not ideal, when you are new to poker. Its better to pick just one site, so you dont constantly have to adjust to different software, tournament structures and player pool tendencies.

Most important of all though is the point made by Jon Poker, that to move up to low stakes and later mid stakes games, you need to first know, that you are able to beat micro games. You need a track record. Sure its possible to build say a 500$ bankroll from freerolls, but if you then take that bankroll and start playing 5-12$ MTTs right away, chances are, you are going to lose the money again, and then you are back at square one.

By only playing freerolls you are simply not challenging yourself enough. Not only is the competition softer, but you also dont learn to deal with downswings. If you fail to cash 30 freerolls in a row, your bankroll is still the same, so you never go through the emotion of actually losing money. Which is something, you need to be able to handle, if you want to play poker for profit.

Busting from freerolls due to bad beats apparently tilt a lot of people enough, that they feel a need to complain about it in the forum. But if that sets you off, then just try to imagine, how you would feel, if you have spend 3-4 hours to build up a chip stack worth 100$ and then bust near the bubble in a 16,5$ MTT, because someone hits a 2-outer on the river against you.

So in short (and partly repeating Jon Poker)

* Pick one poker site and make a reasonable starting deposit of at least 100$
* Invest in the most essential software like a tracker
* Grind micro stakes games, until you have both a track record and enough bankroll to move up
* Only play high quality freerolls and only as supplement to your regular games
* Spend time studying and improving away from the tables

Dont be one of those guys, who get stuck in freerolls or for that matter the low end of the micros like 2-5NL cash and never attempt to make it further.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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Great addition to my original post Fundiver - alot of good key points in that response that I did not touch on in my original post! If you find my original post helpful - then you wil not want to skip the response above. It is solid gold.
 
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Mike hawk

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yh thats true

+1

Lol,

People complain about beats in free games...you get what you pay for.

Play a 20 or 50.00 buy in and i promise your shove won't be called with 72os . No matter how many times it's explained if you don't have anything at risk who cares what you call with.

As the OP is suggesting, deposit 20.00 and play with something at risk. If you can't afford 20.00 maybe your time is better spent on working a 2nd job rather than hours on a free roll to win a dollar.

You will never become a better player on free rolls because it's not poker. This is really designed to draw in players. (I will exempt the CC free roll. The field is small and you can win a few bucks in a reasonable time.)
indeed
 
Alekxandrovi3

Alekxandrovi3

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Poker is a game. Professionals don't always win either. Play and have fun. Or hud and play based on your bankroll. Read books. See how good players play.
 
M

Mahdi

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Agree with you. CC freerolls are the best one, skills level of players are very high. Even when you have a bad beats you can only blame yourself because in most of time here it is only your mistakes. Really I am very enjoying here to play because in CC freerolls and league games you are improving your skills. In other freerolls with huge numbers of players you can only spoil it.


Well, there is still a lot of people who are going all-in pre with A2o at 100+bbs ...
 
M

myquickwit

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I don't usually read long posts but that was very well written. And actually quite inspiring. It made me want to deposit and play some poker lol. Lets go!
 
S

StreetPhd

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I see LOTS of posts on this forum regarding tournament poker based on freerolls and freeroll hands - most of which are honestly results oriented posts - and tho I take the time to respond to be helpful - if you have ever read one of my posts, you will know I have a tendency to give it to you straight and not to sugar coat anything simply to keep your feelings in check and not come across harsh. The reality is poker is tough, unforgiving and with all the resources available more people play better today than ever before - if you dont want to put in the time or effort to become better - you will remain a losing (or break even) player forever. Such is the reality of poker - if you want to become successful you will need thick skin I promise you.

That being said, amongst all the whining of the bad beats and the lost hands when we got our money in good -- there's still a fair number who turn out and claim the platform they're playing on is rigged for action... again, for me personally this is a piss poor excuse used as a crutch to prop up bad players unwilling to take a good look at themselves in the mirror - I know, I have been this player before. As I said, poker is hard and if you aren't willing to work for it, you will likely get left in the dust.

Lots of folks complaining about building rolls from freerolls, always looking for new ones to hop into, asking where the best player pools are so they don't have to deal with the sh*t show of most freerolls ,- in reality, all of them are full of these kinds of actions! You cannot escape them!! So either you are ok with the atmosphere or you are not - i cant make that choice for you.

Nonetheless, I have said this countless times, if you are playing for the fun of the game and you just enjoy what you do - then playing these is no big deal and you shouldn't worry about losing in them alot -- because in tournament poker you are going to lose much more than you are going to win! However, IF you're goal is to become good at poker, to build a roll that you can attempt to make some extra money with then I HIGHLY encourage you to pick a site of your choice - throw down a deposit for a micro stakes bankroll and have at it!! You need to have confidence in yourself when you play poker - you're time is also worth something at the end of the day. So why play 4+ hours to win $20 when you can spend $1‐$2 on a game and play for $60‐$100 up top? Some games will even have $250+ up top for less than a $2 buy in! Spend your time and energy chasing that dream instead of investing nothing -- playing your best and then getting bent out of shape because your deep run only got you paid 15c.

The freeroll complaint department is full! The site is rampant with it lol. Is that a bad thing? Not really, because people are playing the game of poker and some of them are trying to take it seriously - im just trying to offer some perspective on what seems to be a large focus of tournament poker here on CC. Should you quit freerolls altogether?? Of course not, you will still find me floating around in the occasional BOL or intertops freerolls once in a while -- all im saying is if you want to take this game seriously, don't allow yourself to get stuck in the freerolls. Spinning your wheels day in and day out for months will tax you mentally, and even when you do win the rewards are pretty lack luster and don't give us the satisfaction of winning nearly as much as a real money tournament. So my advice is have fun, play the game for the enjoyment - and if you decide to take it more seriously - then have some faith in yourself! Make a deposit to kick off a micro roll and grind on it for a while! Taking the leap is challenging - just remember the cardinal rule and don't deposit more than you are willing to lose.

For those of you who decide to take the leap and do want to take poker seriously -- remember to invest in yourself! First thing off the bat i recommended buying Poker Tracker 4. The HUD function you can learn and use later - the main benefit you will get from this is it will log all of your hands and stats so that you may review them later. This is such an invaluable tool - I don't think you can learn and grow in online poker without it. Its never been easier to mark weird hands, pinpoint leaks, run icm spots, and review entire tournaments. The second thing I suggest is to find a group of like minded people - and study the game once or twice a week! If you want to get good, you will HAVE to put in the time.

Instead of posting a long ramble let's simplify things with a list of what I think you should do if you want to take the game seriously...

-Buy PT4 - this tool is a must have and its only a one time cost. Invest in yourself and don't look back.

-Use the free tools.

-Study study study!!

-Put in proper volume -- variance is unwavering and to help fade variance you will need to play at LEAST 100 MTTs per month. I work a full time job 5 days a week and I smash this requirement every month - so it can be done if you are dedicated enough.

-Use good game selection - again tournaments are full of variance. Find the best bang for your buck, and play the hell out of it! Remember, its easier to beat smaller fields than it is to run the larger fielded marathons.

-Use good BRM - if you dont, you will surely go broke. And that's fine, it happens, but know when to drop down and know when to slow the bleeding.

-Invest in paid programs - things like ICMizer and Pairrd or possibly a PokerCoaching or Upswing membership for a year.

-Once you reach buy ins of $55 and up you should probably buy PIO solver. Its not that everyone is playing that good of a GTO strategy...but all the good regs at this level allllll use this tool. There are some more advanced solvers on the way as well so this is likely going to change in the future.

-When you've done everything you think you can do in your power to achieve your level of play, but still want to keep growing -- hire a coach. Best thing I ever did for my game.

For those of you finding it hard to get a study group together -- I have offered MANY times on this site to do a free hand history review on live stream for anyone who chose to submit me such and no one has ever taken me up on it - the offer is there. All you have to do is swallow your pride and shoot me a message and I will be happy to do the review and twitch stream it as promised.

Now that my final advice for success is out of the way -- thanks to everyone who reads this in full, I appreciate your time. To all of you crying about freerolls and your KKs not holding up vs 5 all ins....stop it lol dont be results oriented and don't get stuck in the freerolls forever!!! Thanks again, take care and good luck at the tables.
Thanks Jon for this well delivered post.
I have spent many hours playing freerolls and have had my share of frustrations but ultimately I realize that you get what you pay for.
I'll be taking your advice and will spend some money and take more time to study.
Kind Regards,
C.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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Thanks Jon for this well delivered post.
I have spent many hours playing freerolls and have had my share of frustrations but ultimately I realize that you get what you pay for.
I'll be taking your advice and will spend some money and take more time to study.
Kind Regards,
C.


Good luck buddy!! Work hard, practice good brm, game selection and put in proper volume...its almost impossible not to succeed! I have all the faith in the world that you CAN do it.
 
MattRyder

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Bottom line, in my mind, most recreational players play the same way, whether freerolls or lower stakes (< $125 buy-in). If you always play like a machine you will eventually make money (but then you're not a "recreational" player anymore) because most players are not playing like machines all of the time. Most make mistakes, most get emotional, most get tired.
 
C

capo1014

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Freerolls

Nothing to complain about they are free, this costs nothing but your time. I like playing when I have some down time poker relaxs me and there is zero stress involved on my end. Have fun Capo1014
 
ObbleeXY

ObbleeXY

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-Buy PT4 - this tool is a must have and its only a one time cost. Invest in yourself and don't look back.
.


Wow...my neck is sore from all the nodding in agreement.

Quick question about PT4.

Is it that you advise to use such a too, or this one specifically?
I've been using freer version of HM3 and am considering getting full version, but am uncertain which hud has the most shelf-life...

Cheers,
ObbleeXY
 
ToNy70929

ToNy70929

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UZ
Thanks for the informative thoughts. I completely agree. And I find it very strange to complain about freerolls, which will always support players.:)
 
venycyos

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The real growth is to stop complaining, some complain even for being a day without sun. There is no use complaining, especially about poker, love it or leave it.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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Wow...my neck is sore from all the nodding in agreement.

Quick question about PT4.

Is it that you advise to use such a too, or this one specifically?
I've been using freer version of HM3 and am considering getting full version, but am uncertain which hud has the most shelf-life...

Cheers,
ObbleeXY


Quite honestly I prefer PT4 because it is more widely used and has a ton of features in it easily learned by the available content. HM3 is made by the same company and is apparently a little more user friendly. Both programs work well and are pretty widely used. I would suggest PT4 since I specifically have more experience with that program tho I do not believe a paid version of HM is a bad choice. Make sure you don't shortcut yourself...like I said in the OP - invest in yourself! Its a one time cost, bite bullet and get the tracker of your choice. It will be essential to your progression as a poker player looking to take your game a little more seriously.

As far as HUDs are concerned I would specifically advise you stay away from using a HUD until your understanding and fundamentals of the game are rock solid. Trying to develop a good strategy and understanding of the game while trying to deduce stats and multi table at the same time is likely too much for the average person. When it comes to a ton of new information, I dont want you trying to drink from a fire hose per say -- trying to take in too much at one time will overwhelm you and your results will be terrible.

When it does come time to use a HUD, I suggest only the most basic of stats. I see some people playing with literally 15+ stats on their HUD and its just overkill for the smallest stakes...all you really need to know IMO for the lowest stakes in tournament poker is VPIP - PFR - AF - - total hands - 3b - Fold to 3B - Fold to Cbet

In general - I just shows us a basic idea of how aggressive, loose, and sticky a person tends to be. We should be able to make decent judgments from here. I get asked all the time- why don't you have a cbet flop stat on your villans?? Its because I dont care how much my villans are cbetting flops...I already know a large tendency of the player pool is to over cbet - plus my game strategies already tell me how I am going to react to my villans flop cbet -- so I don't care how often they are doing it...I only care how often they fold. If they are over folding, then I over cbet, if their numbers are waaaay too sticky, I dont cbet as much and then when I do and its for value, the cbet is typically much larger than normal because I am now exploiting a sticky player. These adjustments are what I call "player dependent". Sometimes I will make a very tight fold preflop. If I see a villan shove all in for 11bb with a vpip/pfr/3b of 11/8/2 over 300 hands...im probably not calling off my normal range simply because this villan is tighter than bark on a tree and im going to exploit them by over folding - thus, keeping the short stack shorter.

Anyhow since I've elaborated on that a bit lol - I dont recommend any of you just dive straight into an elaborate HUD without feeling EXTREMELY comfortable about your game play. I think people tend to lose sight of certain aspects and only look at their HUDs for decisions and this becomes a bit blinding. Thats my personal take on things.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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Bottom line, in my mind, most recreational players play the same way, whether freerolls or lower stakes (< $125 buy-in).


While I agree with most of your post about their not being much difference between the micros and freeroll player pools -- I strongly disagree with this particular portion.

Before I get into that, my original post in a nutshell is saying that instead of complaining about freerolls and the losses and the donks -- if you really want to attempt to win money at poker -- then stop spinning your wheels in freerolls - have faith in yourself, toss down a deposit and go for it! Play for a prize worth winning rather than some stupid 7c min cash.

Onto the topic of buy ins and player pool differences. This response is specifically directed towards online poker only - no live! You will CLEARLY notice a difference between everything around <$6 and your $11‐$16.50s -- not an overwhelming amount, but a noticeable difference of solid, winning regs at these stakes. Primarily because these are the games that have $500+ up top allllll the time. When you make the jump up to $22‐$33 buy ins - you see alot more regs at these levels. Again, because you can make some good money at these levels if you are a consistent winning player. Once you hit $55+ you start seeing sharks...lots of the best online grinders floating around are playing these games. These are the levels where you HAVE to be on your A game to win consistently. They are tough fields, and if you do not put in the work to be a good player - you will not find success here.

All that said, the $55s and the $109s are definitely beatable games...im just saying these are the games that have some of the better online grinders in them ALL the time. You show me a $5 average buy in grinder with a 33% ROI - and toss them into the $55s, they will get smoked in a short period of time and its simply because they are simply not ready for that player pool.

Take this with a grain of salt, as these are matters of personal opinion. I personally have only played up to $22 buy ins - but I study and look at hands with 4 grinders who frequent everything above those $22s -- if you are not ready for a jump in stakes - it will eat you alive. That's my take on the situation. I think the average "decent" reg can easily beat $3 and under with a little dedication, proper control and work ethic. $5 games is where we notice a slight difference in the player pools becoming just a tiny bit more capable than the games below them. Its not enough to worry about tho - if you're beating $2‐$3 games and are rolled for it - then hop into the $5s and give it a go, if you start losing or feel out of your element - dial it back,play the games you are crushing and ease into the transition. Its easy to feel uncomfortable when we jump stakes.

Anyhow, hope this helps!
 
perrypip

perrypip

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There are a lot of people that are going to complain about things no matter what. Freerolls are a giveaway. People are spoiled.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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Its not spoiled - most of it in general is a form of entitlement tilt. I just started this thread to give perspective on anyone looking to start off taking online poker seriously. Not that I have a fool-proof method - but just to give my personal insight and encouragement on what should do to reach that goal - instead of complaining about freerolls and your results in them. I think this site is rampant with freeroll cry babies and I'll help anyone willing to listen - but I give honest and direct feedback, I dont pander to feelings.
 
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