Would you steal the blinds with 3.5bb from BU with a marginal hand? Or that's unnecessary waste of chips?
The idea is to make my raise seem as the standard 2.5bb to BB (and a bit overkill to SB for the company). I heard that such sizing is optimal for stealing from SB and I missing a reason why I can't do the same from BU.

...At least if you're not playing loose.

Безымянный.jpg
Over a fifty people have a look and no one has something to say?
I guess folks don't like when question being too specific.

Originally Posted by killing_random

Attachment 288263
Over a fifty people have a look and no one has something to say?
I guess folks don't like when question being too specific.

would be specific question if you put what is the tournament buy-in, how many chips you had left, current blind structure, and what type of marginal hand you're refering, then people would reply. without that examples, the question is kinda "empty".
in my opinion 3x open raise, is more than enough is most cases to steal the blinds.

It depends on many things, but a majority of times, I'd say no in case someone wake up with a hand.

Originally Posted by killing_random

Would you steal the blinds with 3.5bb from BU with a marginal hand? Or that's unnecessary waste of chips?
The idea is to make my raise seem as the standard 2.5bb to BB (and a bit overkill to SB for the company). I heard that such sizing is optimal for stealing from SB and I missing a reason why I can't do the same from BU.

...At least if you're not playing loose.

The reason for making this large raise from the small blind is because you're out of position and want to prevent the big blind from having the correct odds to call you with almost all hands. From the button, it's fine to open light and try to steal the blinds, but I wouldn't go with this large 3.5x sizing.

Assuming the effective stack is something like 50bb, raising 2.5x should be plenty.

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

The reason for making this large raise from the small blind is because you're out of position and want to prevent the big blind from having the correct odds to call you with almost all hands. From the button, it's fine to open light and try to steal the blinds, but I wouldn't go with this large 3.5x sizing.

Assuming the effective stack is something like 50bb, raising 2.5x should be plenty.

Yes, but I also want the info that in case if BB call, he won't done it with very loose range (60-90%). That 3.5bb op-raise (only 1bb extra) may help me reduce his expected range and feel more save at the low dry board which usually fits BB very well.

That's definitely true, but the idea is that you don't want to give away information about what you have based on your raise-size. For your range as a whole, you'll do better by raising small because of the much better risk/reward ratio.

Of the thousands of bb defends I have made when the SB opens 3.5x + I'd say less than 5% have had a strong hand TTs+.

I defend my bb to 3.5x opens with all but total garbage, because most of the time this 3.5x open is an off suit Ace. Could be A/Q - which is strong - but I have just as much a chance at winning the pot with K/9, T/J o, 5/6 etc etc.

In other words - who opens 3.5x is nearly always overvaluing their hand - or trying to convince the bb to fold pre because they don't have confidence in their post flop play. Just my 2 cents.

BU still have 2 people to call
SB only the bb (BvB)
So, in the button you are winning 1/3 (33,3) of the time, so dont worth de risk
In the SB you are winning 1/2 (50%) of the time

Originally Posted by killing_random

Yes, but I also want the info that in case if BB call, he won't done it with very loose range (60-90%). That 3.5bb op-raise (only 1bb extra) may help me reduce his expected range and feel more save at the low dry board which usually fits BB very well.

Thank you for posting.

The low dry board is terrible for our 3.5x steals if we have been raising 2.5x with premium.

The reason is the BB now has all the small sets -all the pairs they did not 3 bet- Broadway cards with backdoor flush draws and they should be attacking us when we bet flop on those boards after we 3.5x BU with a steal range only.
If we bet half pot as a bluff on flop there is 12bb in the pot for the V to try to win and a min check raise should win it from us very often.

If we check the flop then there is 8BB in the pot the V can lead steal on the turn as we have to fold to blanks as well as broadways if we are only raising a steal range.

This is the risk reward Colin was talking about.

When we play NL our focus should be on stacking weak players -so we want them to call when we are on the BU with their wide range of hands that let us get their stacks or lets us get away from the pot easily. That is why we balance our range at 2.5x sizing. In fact if the BB is as you describe I lower my bet size to 2 or 2.2 as I want to play in position versus a weak player with my whole range -Dependent on stack size- ICM or Villain's tendencies.

Hope this helps

Originally Posted by killing_random

Yes, but I also want the info that in case if BB call, he won't done it with very loose range (60-90%). That 3.5bb op-raise (only 1bb extra) may help me reduce his expected range and feel more save at the low dry board which usually fits BB very well.

It sounds like instead, you should work on your post flop game.

I'm happy to 2.5x from the button and have the BB call with any 2. I'll destroy that opponent in the long run.

If you are in the mood for the final table, then of course you should.

Originally Posted by jordanbillie

It sounds like instead, you should work on your post flop game.

I'm happy to 2.5x from the button and have the BB call with any 2. I'll destroy that opponent in the long run.

Well, actually I'm increase the pot a little because I'm pretty confident about my postflop game under that extra pressure.

I don't open more than 2.5x after the middle stages of the tournament , so I find it a waste of chips.

I prefer open raise more BTNs and make my opponents wonder what I have than inflate the pot pre flop.

To be honest I have seen those pre-flop raises only in freerolls and micros and never to a bigger buy in game.

Originally Posted by killing_random

Well, actually I'm increase the pot a little because I'm pretty confident about my postflop game under that extra pressure.

You will most likely be playing less flops.

Since there is always the risk that a player will call, I would only try to steal the blinds with reasonably competitive hands. Suited connectors (45s-T9s), picture cards (KJs, QT, JT and so on), or small pocket pairs (22-99) or something like A2s should be at least. With premium hands (AA-JJ, AK) you can of course always raise. If you are already in the prize money or in the bubble, you can often put all in with any two in small blind, as the fold equity is very high. Most of the time your opponent in the bb calls an all in with only the best 10% of all hands. That means he folds 90% and the bagged chips help you a lot to generate more prize money. And even if he calls and he has a good hand for example (66+, A9s, ATo +, KJs +) you still have an equity of 25.28% with 32o. In such a situation, an all-in is often compulsory.

Originally Posted by eetenor

Thank you for posting.

The low dry board is terrible for our 3.5x steals if we have been raising 2.5x with premium.

The reason is the BB now has all the small sets -all the pairs they did not 3 bet- Broadway cards with backdoor flush draws and they should be attacking us when we bet flop on those boards after we 3.5x BU with a steal range only.
If we bet half pot as a bluff on flop there is 12bb in the pot for the V to try to win and a min check raise should win it from us very often.

If we check the flop then there is 8BB in the pot the V can lead steal on the turn as we have to fold to blanks as well as broadways if we are only raising a steal range.

This is the risk reward Colin was talking about.

When we play NL our focus should be on stacking weak players -so we want them to call when we are on the BU with their wide range of hands that let us get their stacks or lets us get away from the pot easily. That is why we balance our range at 2.5x sizing. In fact if the BB is as you describe I lower my bet size to 2 or 2.2 as I want to play in position versus a weak player with my whole range -Dependent on stack size- ICM or Villain's tendencies.

Hope this helps

Nice post - I play the same way. Good to know I'm not donking off - with my own brand of weird non - GTO play.

Originally Posted by jordanbillie

You will most likely be playing less flops.

Originally Posted by akmost

I don't open more than 2.5x after the middle stages of the tournament , so I find it a waste of chips. I prefer open raise more BTNs and make my opponents wonder what I have than inflate the pot pre flop. To be honest I have seen those pre-flop raises only in freerolls and micros and never to a bigger buy in game.

Alright, then I would raise 3.5bb BU only when BB's stack far more smaller then mine, like 1/3 or smth. How you like that?
No range reduce needs then.

Originally Posted by killing_random

Alright, then I would raise 3.5bb BU only when BB's stack far more smaller then mine, like 1/3 or smth. How you like that?
No range reduce needs then.

Still I don't like it.

Let me ask you something since you want to make this play and many members of the forum, among them an Expert, say that is not a good idea then why you post since you are entitled to your opinion? Make whatever you want at the tables and GL by me!

When opening from any other seat than SB, its not a disaster to get called by BB, because we will have position postflop and often be able to overrealise our equity. Often people play very fit or fold on the flop after defending their BB, so we can take it down with a C-bet very often. And when that fail to work, we can check back turn and get to see all cards for the price of a small C-bet. If they check to us on the river, sometimes we can bluff, if the river card is good for our perceived range like an ace. All in all the world is our oyster, when we have position, and we are against a wide and weak range. And this is part of the reason why, open raises dont need to be so large from the other seats

Originally Posted by akmost

Still I don't like it.

Let me ask you something since you want to make this play and many members of the forum, among them an Expert, say that is not a good idea then why you post since you are entitled to your opinion? Make whatever you want at the tables and GL by me!

It's not like I'm in love with that 3.5bb raise. I'm collecting reasons why it may be good or bad to fill the gap in my knowledge.
And I prefer objective facts over opinions. If 10 people just say they like that idea and 100 don't, without explanation it doesn't really help me.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

...And this is part of the reason why, open raises dont need to be so large from the other seats

Isn't TAG players using the bigger sizing by the way? Or they just never slow play their tight ranges and that's it...

Originally Posted by killing_random

Alright, then I would raise 3.5bb BU only when BB's stack far more smaller then mine, like 1/3 or smth. How you like that?
No range reduce needs then.

I just want you to know that when I see somebody 3.5x in my games, it directly correlates to how fishy they are overall. Nothing makes me smile more than being able to resteal over someone who 3.5 or 4x raised pre. They just waisted sooo much unnecessarily.

If you have a specific reason to do it...it can be appropriate. However, your standard raise from the button should not be this high. You will get abused by the observant players.

Originally Posted by killing_random

Isn't TAG players using the bigger sizing by the way? Or they just never slow play their tight ranges and that's it...

The TAG players are the reason why I win in MTTs. They only bet (large) when they hit. Easyyyyyyyyy money.

Originally Posted by jordanbillie

I just want you to know that when I see somebody 3.5x in my games, it directly correlates to how fishy they are overall. Nothing makes me smile more than being able to resteal over someone who 3.5 or 4x raised pre. They just waisted sooo much unnecessarily.

If you have a specific reason to do it...it can be appropriate. However, your standard raise from the button should not be this high. You will get abused by the observant players.

Yeah, I didn't meant that you should play like that all the time.

Originally Posted by theANMATOR

Of the thousands of bb defends I have made when the SB opens 3.5x + I'd say less than 5% have had a strong hand TTs+.

I defend my bb to 3.5x opens with all but total garbage, because most of the time this 3.5x open is an off suit Ace. Could be A/Q - which is strong - but I have just as much a chance at winning the pot with K/9, T/J o, 5/6 etc etc.

In other words - who opens 3.5x is nearly always overvaluing their hand - or trying to convince the bb to fold pre because they don't have confidence in their post flop play. Just my 2 cents.

Prime example a big stack player on my right just opened 2 hands back 2 back in the SB 3.5x.

First hand I defend with 6/7 off because I'm thinking he is being overly aggressive with his big stack.

Flop is quite nice. 456 rainbow.
SB bets out 3/4 pot - I call. Turn is beautiful, 3 total rainbow board - my nuts.

SB checks I cbet just over half pot, SB spazzes out with a jam - and I happily call.
Thanks for the double. He turns over 88, and river is clean.

Very next orbit folds to him again and he opens 3.5x. I call with my speculative Qd/Js off.
Flop is Qc5h3c.
I check, SB cbets half pot I call.
Turn is 7s, I check, SB barrels half pot again leaving himself about a pot size bet on the river. I call.
River is Ks. Final board Qc5h3c7sKs. SB jams, does he have KKs, does he have K/Q?

I doubt it - I think he either has an under pair like he did before or some weird bluff.

I call - villain turns Ac/5c bottom pair missed flush draw.

Originally Posted by killing_random

Isn't TAG players using the bigger sizing by the way? Or they just never slow play their tight ranges and that's it...

I consider myself TAG and ALL of my bets range from 2.3x to 2.5x I do not make my big hands 2.5x and my smaller hands 2.3x. I randomly bet between this range so nobody has a clue what my range is.

Originally Posted by jordanbillie

The TAG players are the reason why I win in MTTs. They only bet (large) when they hit. Easyyyyyyyyy money.

You must be talking about TAG level 1 players. Agree - but TAG players above level 1 aren't as straight forward.

This actually contain the answer to my question.
How Much Should You Raise? - YouTube
I just leave it here in case I want to check this thread again.