Mentor
Rock Star
Silver Level
5% is in the realm of reasonable. pokerstars set the standard when they listened to the huge outcry from players to lower DON rake; they brought it down to 4% (from 10% I believe).
5% is in the realm of reasonable. pokerstars set the standard when they listened to the huge outcry from players to lower DON rake; they brought it down to 4% (from 10% I believe).
mapt02h
Visionary
Silver Level
Fair enough Mentor, I don't play on Pokerstars just now so wasn't aware of this.
Guess it kind of makes sense to have the rake the same as HUSNGs like mentioned before. High rake can really damage your ROI on the DoN tables..
Guess it kind of makes sense to have the rake the same as HUSNGs like mentioned before. High rake can really damage your ROI on the DoN tables..
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Potheadwoman
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I like the bodog beginner SNG that's still pays out to five but gives out a pay structure similar to a regular SNG. I would think this might actually give you a better opportunity to make some money rather then just grind out the DONs!! JUST my opinion though. I guess maybe Im more interested in cash volume
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pobe27mo
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Wow and there I was delighted to find a site (Everest) with "only" 10% rake at the micros.
I definitely get what people are saying about the boredom aspect but I still think they are good for beginners to learn some basic skills, especially patience, and also to gradually introduce and learn multi-tabling. I think a little bit of confidence early on in your poker playing is also important and from my experience you are more likely to get this from DONs rather than STT or MTT SNGs.
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
ha ha ha
blueskies
Legend
Loyaler
Having now played 80 DoN's, my ROI is a lousy 4% (including rake)... The ROI was a bit better before my last 4 tries, which were all losses, out in 6th 3x and 7th one time. The difference between cashing and bubbling is getting beat by crappier hands (going in) one time. There's little room for error because the blinds climb fast and the stack dwindles even quicker. You shove with AQ and get called by the lucky big stack fish who has been playing 50% of hands with 10 4 and you lose. Pretty frustrating stuff.
I don't think you need much of a bankroll for this, assuming you are pretty decent. But I don't think playing this for profit is a good thing. And even for practicing for MTTs I don't think it's that good because to play correctly, you have to be very conservative. In real MTTs, you should be more aggressive.
I usually only play DoN either if I feel bored with cash games, or if I have been on a prolonged bad run and wanna shake things up a bit. Once you get the hang of the basics, go with MTTs or cash games. More "bang for the buck."
I don't think you need much of a bankroll for this, assuming you are pretty decent. But I don't think playing this for profit is a good thing. And even for practicing for MTTs I don't think it's that good because to play correctly, you have to be very conservative. In real MTTs, you should be more aggressive.
I usually only play DoN either if I feel bored with cash games, or if I have been on a prolonged bad run and wanna shake things up a bit. Once you get the hang of the basics, go with MTTs or cash games. More "bang for the buck."
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
Guys, don't be fooled: 6-max DONs can be extremely profitable, and I tend to agree that the BR requirements are probably not as strict because the variance is way lower. At least I'm finding that to be the case. Not saying to jump into them with 4 BI's or anything, but they're prime candidates for shot-taking and building a BR quickly if you approach them with the proper strategy. Do NOT attempt to play them like a standard STT.
The 6-max DONs are quick so you can get in lots of volume. If you have RB or play enough volume to get decent VIP levels, then the relatively high rake is offset even further. I get 35% RB, and since BF I play a very moderate amount of volume, averaging ~170 DONs per month, and I've still found them to be very profitable.
Just since starting them in March with a $200 deposit, I've made a $1450 withdrawal, a $1125 withdrawal, and am just days away from making another $1200 withdrawal. With each withdrawal I leave $200 or $300 and grind it up again. Eezy Peezy!
The 6-max DONs are quick so you can get in lots of volume. If you have RB or play enough volume to get decent VIP levels, then the relatively high rake is offset even further. I get 35% RB, and since BF I play a very moderate amount of volume, averaging ~170 DONs per month, and I've still found them to be very profitable.
Just since starting them in March with a $200 deposit, I've made a $1450 withdrawal, a $1125 withdrawal, and am just days away from making another $1200 withdrawal. With each withdrawal I leave $200 or $300 and grind it up again. Eezy Peezy!
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bobsay225
Rock Star
Silver Level
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pobe27mo
Enthusiast
Silver Level
What stakes do you play them at? I've been playing full ring but might switch to 6-max, just not sure yet how much adjusting I'll have to make to my ranges.
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
I play the $20 through $80 ones, but my ROI is far worse with the 20's than the higher buy-ins for some reason. I suspect it's just down to variance since there's a lot more gambling at those stakes, and the strategy that works well for me at the higher stakes doesn't work as well there. The bulk of my volume is at the $30's, because that's the highest stakes where you can sit at 4 tables -- the $50's and $80's only run one table at a time.
When I started out I played the FR DONs and had some success, but it was more of a grind. Once I gave 6-max a try, I never looked back. Even with the slightly looser play, there seems to be less variance involved in outlasting 3 than in outlasting 5, and the games go much quicker.
dmorris68
Legend
Loyaler
For me personally, I think 6-max ROI is undoubtedly higher, but since I didn't play FR very long I can't back it up with actual numbers. I just feel more successful at them, and I think they're more fun to play, which itself can translate into better results.
I'd say a decent player should be able to sustain 8-15% ROI. That may not sound high, but combined with RB, or enough volume to earn VIP cashback, it totals out to a decent profit.
Here's my Lock ROI chart from the in-game sharkscope feature (this is over 872 games, more than 800 of which would be 6-max DONs):
As far as game count per stakes, I'd put it at about 220 $20's, 400 $30's, 110 $50's, and 80 $80's. As I mentioned earlier, the $20's pwn me, likely for the reasons I stated. And although the $10's look good on the chart, that was probably only 50 games or so before I moved up to the $20's. In true degen fashion, when I faltered at the $20's I moved up again instead of down, and I'm glad I did since it seems I fell into a stride and held my own. I still drop back and play the occasional $20 when the others aren't filling, and I still think I suck at them, lol. The $30's seem to be my sweet spot, plus $30 is the highest that seats 4 tables at a time -- the higher stakes only seat 1 table at a time, so volume is better at the $30's.
Over the last 5 months, I'm averaging about $700/month profit (including RB) from the relatively low volume I'm playing. It's actually been a far more consistent income than when I was grinding either cash or regular SnGs, where I would have much bigger swings up and down (although my game was arguably worse back then too). The lower variance of the DONs and positive overall ROI have been a lot more soothing to my poker ego (and BR). I've thought about giving them up and going back to regular SnG's, but they're so slow to fill on Merge compared to the DONs that I just don't have the patience. And I'm still running pretty good in these, so until I get burned out on them I'm not inclined to tempt the poker gods.