A question about short stacked play

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Zebra419

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Hopefully I can get some advice on this. Let's say I'm in a tourney and am short stacked. The blinds are 200/400 and I'm in the big blind with only 1,200 left. Someone makes a standard raise in late position. I'm already in for 400, so do I have the odds to just put the rest of my chips in with any two cards, or should I fold a junk hand and wait to get my remaining 800 in with a different hand? I guess the question is this: If you are extremely short stacked, does being in the big blind alone give you the odds to put the rest of your chips in?
 
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flatcaller

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put it in. U fold now your at 800 next hand your small so u now have 600, u fold again. now u get a hand and everyone calls u and u get sucked out, if you lucky enough to get a hand before next blind. Just get it in and hope for the best 3x short stack is dead money, need a double up to at least get people thinking if they will call or fold to you.
 
coyotegal

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I say throw em in and hope for the best... ultimately any two cards can win and if you wait for a premium hand and actually get it you still might loose to the joker who throws it all in with 72s.... so shove your stack while it's big enough to make a few more rounds of blinds...and if you win with any two cards, those ahead of you (who are smart enough..lol) will think twice about stealing your blinds next time....
 
A2345Razz

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Id probably shove 90%+ of the time...there are always exceptions/extreme ICM considerations...etc.

Playing in one of the CC tournaments showed me one of the biggest mistakes people here make is being afraid of busting in tournaments and that allowing them to play horribly vis a vis pot odds, etc.

Limping with 10BBs, calling for 1/4 of one chips pre and check folding flops...not calling off with 3.5 to 1....I saw it all in that tournament tbh, and it was pretty LOL.

You are going to have to build some chips somehow...better to start with a stack thats going to threaten most other stack than with 2BBs or something where you are guaranteed a showdown for your shove.
 
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Thanks for the replies, everyone. This helps me out a lot. I was along the same line of thinking, had a disagreement with someone at a local game and just wanted to see what other people thought. This is a great website :) Thanks again!
 
kidkvno1

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You should be learning on how to steal the blinds, so you don't get short stacked. Also you should be looking at shoving with more then 3BBs, 3BBs is ATC's shove. Pray you suckout and win.
 
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Zebra419

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Re: kidkvno1

I usually don't get that shortstacked, preferring to shove if I have 10 bb or less, and I know about stealing the blinds, position, etc. This could be a situation when I lose a huge pot in a previous hand and am left with only a few bb...thanks :)
 
dj11

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Truly the odds don't matter, you have no fold equity. Sure ATC can win, but I would much rather have an Ax or broadway hand and often wait, and thus blind down. This is counter to everything I know about the game, but it seems to serve me better than shoving 83o.

With the blinds at 200/400 you may already be ITM, or close, and if so then doing nothing is often more profitable than doing anything at all. In either case take your time doing it.
 
MediaBLITZ

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I usually don't get that shortstacked, preferring to shove if I have 10 bb or less, and I know about stealing the blinds, position, etc. This could be a situation when I lose a huge pot in a previous hand and am left with only a few bb...thanks :)

Oh okay - I was going to say you were already way past the point of shoving.
 
z28_RoadRage

z28_RoadRage

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I agree with dj... I have been in your spot a few times (caught stealing and losing my stack).

I remember one tourny that I had 2 BBs and a few extra antes left, I got hit with the both blinds and had to fold them. I remember this tourny because two players were laughing in the chat window calling me an ass and more... In a span of about 30 min, I took one of the guys that was laughing out of the tourney and then made final table.

This is not to say to always do this, but I really do believe in a chip and a chair.
 
kidkvno1

kidkvno1

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I usually don't get that shortstacked, preferring to shove if I have 10 bb or less, and I know about stealing the blinds, position, etc. This could be a situation when I lose a huge pot in a previous hand and am left with only a few bb...thanks :)
Ahh ok :cool:
The way i look at it is 5BBs I'm shoving with ATC's 10BBs i'm picking better hands, but not much better.
I've been down to 1/2BB due to a suckout]and just out right shoved it, and came back to win the game.
 
Poker Orifice

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Hopefully I can get some advice on this. Let's say I'm in a tourney and am short stacked. The blinds are 200/400 and I'm in the big blind with only 1,200 left. Someone makes a standard raise in late position. I'm already in for 400, so do I have the odds to just put the rest of my chips in with any two cards, or should I fold a junk hand and wait to get my remaining 800 in with a different hand? I guess the question is this: If you are extremely short stacked, does being in the big blind alone give you the odds to put the rest of your chips in?
It really depends on the situation. ie. you'd be better off looking to get it in over an LP shove while in SB, essentially tripling your stack (if antes in play).
'it depends'
If you want to check out some SS scenarios, Collin Moshmann's SNG Strategy book has a section on this (I'm referring to extremely short-stacked... not just talking about your typical open-shove shortstack).
Alot of players after losing an allin, will just ship their remaining piddly stack in on the very next hand (knowing they'll be needing to triple up SOON) but it's much better to try to look for a more ideal spot... a spot where you can make the most of getting your remaining chips in.

As far as when are we supposed to call down while in BB? (depends, lol).
Not accounting for ICM, you should be calling if you're getting 2.4 to 1 (never folding if getting 2.7 to 1) & probably calling if getting 2 to 1. But.. 'it depends' lol.
Try posting some HH examples for feedback.
 
Poker Orifice

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I agree with dj... I have been in your spot a few times (caught stealing and losing my stack).
^ or getting it in GREAT! & losing your stack to a HUGE suckout
I remember one tourny that I had 2 BBs and a few extra antes left, I got hit with the both blinds and had to fold them. I remember this tourny because two players were laughing in the chat window calling me an ass and more... In a span of about 30 min, I took one of the guys that was laughing out of the tourney and then made final table.

This is not to say to always do this, but I really do believe in a chip and a chair.
Yup. I wouldn't try to make a practise of it but weird shyt can happen for sure. I recall having less than 2bb's on bubble of a ~1,000 player $26 buyin on FTP & 5-10mins. later I was sitting in Top5 of 100 left after bubble had popped & ended up final tabling it (5th I think).
Pretty sure dakota had a really nice win in a tournament on Stars after being in similiar spot on the bubble (or before bubble).
Obviously better to be attempting to retain a stack that at least has some FE. If we wait til' we're super short (due to blinding down), even when we double we're still going to be short & will be needing to double again.. SOON. (kind of off topic though with OP's post)
 
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Something to consider as well for short-stacked play is how close you are to placing "in the money".

If you're close to placing in profit, or close to reaching the next prize level, and can wait for others to be eliminated, you might fold a number of hands, regardless of their strength, in order to guarantee a little profit for your efforts before you "go for broke" or attempt to steal.

In one recent freeroll, I was short-stacked, but kept folding until I was guaranteed 99th place ($2.00 prize). Then, I started getting aggressive on hands I felt had a chance (Face Cards, Pocket Pairs, A-anything).

I got lucky on 3-4 hands over 20 minutes, and ultimately finished 27th ($8.70 prize).

It wasn't much for 3 hours of work, but the logic is the same for me:

First guarantee profit, then multiply it.
 
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Something to consider as well for short-stacked play is how close you are to placing "in the money".

If you're close to placing in profit, or close to reaching the next prize level, and can wait for others to be eliminated, you might fold a number of hands, regardless of their strength, in order to guarantee a little profit for your efforts before you "go for broke" or attempt to steal.

In one recent freeroll, I was short-stacked, but kept folding until I was guaranteed 99th place ($2.00 prize). Then, I started getting aggressive on hands I felt had a chance (Face Cards, Pocket Pairs, A-anything).

I got lucky on 3-4 hands over 20 minutes, and ultimately finished 27th ($8.70 prize).

It wasn't much for 3 hours of work, but the logic is the same for me:

First guarantee profit, then multiply it.

This really is awful thinking and so negative. Please don't pay attention to it. Use the bubble factor to your advantage, don't be the one being afraid of it losing chips to people stealing on the bubble. Play to win or place high up and you will win more in the long run. If you pay $5 to enter to you really care about winning $6 and making a dollar?

Back to the original post though. Ideally don't get short stacked, learn about M and use it. Id suggest Dan Harrington's books as a good place to start.

If you do find yourself with 3BB's though, and your on the BB, then it is easily an all in with any 2 cards. Lets say your in for 400, SB 200, someone has raised which puts you all in an no one else in the hand (SB has folded) then you have 200+400+1200 - 1800. So your playing 800 to win 1800, or your getting 2.25 to 1. Now, if you have 83o against say AK (ive taken one card from all 3 suits here) then pre flop you are 33% to win against 67%, or 2 to 1 against. You're getting 2.25 to 1, so over time it is +EV (look it up if you dont know!), which makes it a push.

Just how are you hoping to get back from 800 chips if you fold? Lets say you double up next hand against the BB, then you will have 1600. You have 1200 now. Get on with it!!!!!
 
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DanziM

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Seriously Hotshot, bad advice dude.

Play to win the tournament, you dont register for an MTT with the notion of just making the money, we all play to win.

I personally will almost blind myself out than play with rags, id prefer to be down to 400 chips and pay with Ax rather than 83o. Thats my personal pref however others may like to jam for value, thats ok too.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Seriously Hotshot, bad advice dude.

...you dont register for an MTT with the notion of just making the money, we all play to win.

Well you don't, I don't - but I know plenty of guys who do. That's kind of just where they are at. They don't really have the confidence or ego to go for the win - either cause they are fairly new (I remember I used to be thrilled just to make it past first break, then it was final table then it was hitting money, now it's just win baby) or just personality.

Some of these guys are my friends but it just drives me crazy when they are giving me atta-boys for min-cashing or even bubbling and getting gas money. All I'm thinking about is what I should or should not have done to be in position to win that thing (results aside).

I would like to think that once the guys who are happy cashing win a couple they might see it different, but I just don't know.

But let 'em cash a few before they are pressured to win - HA
 
A2345Razz

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Something to consider as well for short-stacked play is how close you are to placing "in the money".

If you're close to placing in profit, or close to reaching the next prize level, and can wait for others to be eliminated, you might fold a number of hands, regardless of their strength, in order to guarantee a little profit for your efforts before you "go for broke" or attempt to steal.

In one recent freeroll, I was short-stacked, but kept folding until I was guaranteed 99th place ($2.00 prize). Then, I started getting aggressive on hands I felt had a chance (Face Cards, Pocket Pairs, A-anything).

I got lucky on 3-4 hands over 20 minutes, and ultimately finished 27th ($8.70 prize).

It wasn't much for 3 hours of work, but the logic is the same for me:

First guarantee profit, then multiply it.

Unfortunately with the vast majority of MTTs you are lowering your ROI in the long run by thinking this way....

There are definitely ICM situations that warrant a very conservative mode of play, but overall equity in a top 3 finish is usually much more lucrative in the long run than playing for "guaranteeing a profit".

Basically what you are saying here is absolutely the opposite of optimal play in most cases.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Unfortunately with the vast majority of MTTs you are lowering your ROI in the long run by thinking this way....

There are definitely ICM situations that warrant a very conservative mode of play, but overall equity in a top 3 finish is usually much more lucrative in the long run than playing for "guaranteeing a profit".

Basically what you are saying here is absolutely the opposite of optimal play in most cases.

Yup - I used to do this with tourney play. Figured the Final Table was like the NBA playoffs - just get there and anything can happen. Yeah it's just like that - if you have to spot the opposing team 20 points each game.
I'd arrive short stacked and hope and pray for AA or KK - and of course it would happen now and then. Mostly then.
Then I started making my move earlier than FT. 1) Two things happened. I started seeing less final tables and 2) started winning and cashing big when I got there.

I don't know where it is but I posted an unscientific graph a few months back that showed the difference between cashing 30% of the time in 4th, 5th or 6th versus cashing 15% of the time in 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Take my word for it - you want the 15%.
 
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I'm probably one of the best SS players in micro carbon. If you dont believe me - look up my sit and go the last 3 months. Just started playing SH, SS SNG's. Crushing it there - where playing SS is the norm. My gut tells me "throw in with any hand" is bs. By late position u mean the SB? or up to Hi jack? the mor eyou go back the more their range/ability and your hand comes into play. KEEP in mind after the blinds you have 6 more hands to pick up something above average to triple up with Antes. I'm guessing ur near bubble? This could work in your favor.
SB raises you and you have crap...and hes been raising you the last 4 buttons Im calling regardless. Hes tight as shet and raises you - you have 45s I still might call. 27o I'm not.
Nest hand you have 600 with 600 behind. You get shet or 2 tight azzes all in before you - u can still fold and have 5 more hands to look at. 1 of those 5 is gonna have a high card in it. Hopefully you can catch a weak table - big stack limps late etc...
Of course being so Short you could always shove anything and your not being to donky here - But I like seing as many options as possible before throwing in the towel. I have come back from $200 in chips late many many times to cash. DONT PANIC! if you wait 3 hands and your down to 450 with Ax hole cards you will triple up atleast and make it through the blinds again - and maybe beat the bubble.
 
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You don't get it Lasercats. yes, you can come back from anywhere. BUT. You will gain more by getting on with it in the right situations than waiting for AA/KK/AK with a short stack.

Look at like this. Any hand can win, so if you call 3 all ins with A10 and then win the hand is your call the correct thing to do?

Oh and I dont mean to put you down or anything, but this shows you having made $3.71 in the last week on the merge network.......?
http://playerscope.com/lasercats/mergenetwork?pid=48288773&pnid=22
 
dj11

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There are many 'common wisdom's' that I have dropped over the years.

Shorty playing ATC is one of them. Don't take that wrong, when I get short I am looking to shove, but not with ATC unless I have no choice at all. Call it superstition if you want, but I like to think the poker gods will reward me if I just hang in there one more hand, or another hand. So I tend to wait for a more advantageous situation, like being able to get it in first.

The other major 'common wisdom' I have dropped, is when I am the chip leader, I seldom feel any compunction to be the one who calls shorties shove.

Both of these are talked about by Dan Harrington in his HoH series, and he advocates just the opposite.....shove ATC, and CL should call most shorty shoves (actually he says yes if there is a 10-1 chip advantage).

When I get either short, or big, I don't want to waste my chips...best time to play smart......
 
TeUnit

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unless there are crazy bubble considerations, just get it in, you are actually "happy" that there was a raise in front, because if you get lucky you will get more chips

even if it was a negative icm proposition....its often better to make a negative play now than a more negative play later
 
MediaBLITZ

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Shorty playing ATC is one of them. Don't take that wrong, when I get short I am looking to shove, but not with ATC unless I have no choice at all. Call it superstition if you want, but I like to think the poker gods will reward me if I just hang in there one more hand, or another hand.

So is there a limit as to how short you will get or do you go all the way down to a single BB (or less) waiting for an opportunity?
 
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It's all about M at the end of the day.

For me, if m short, then I like a late position shove when folded to me, and any suited no or 1 gap connectors and suited K's and A's are good to shove with.

It depends on your mindset. Mine is to win, others might be to survive, which to me is just wrong......

Would be interested to know if people like to win or survive, and their experience and skill levels.....
 
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