OMGITSOVER9K
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
BvB FR I wouldn't mind it since we'd be IP postflop but against the BTN I hate it since his calling range does us in really.
I mean we get a lot of folds but if we're going for folds we might as well be 3 betting ATC.
I guess the card removal applies and probably whatever else I'm missing from the rest of their theory but I still don't like it.. this is only gonna be good against like really bad fish and chances are they're the ones that are going to limp OTB instead of open.
I mean we get a lot of folds but if we're going for folds we might as well be 3 betting ATC.
I guess the card removal applies and probably whatever else I'm missing from the rest of their theory but I still don't like it.. this is only gonna be good against like really bad fish and chances are they're the ones that are going to limp OTB instead of open.
B
billatx
Rock Star
Silver Level
Thanks for your answers guys!But i think we are missing the point.I see you are talking about cash games.It's a different story to be 3 betting with 30 BBs in a tournament though to be 3 betting with 100 in a cash game...What should you do if you 3bet with 30 BBs and get called?bluff the rest of your stack of?Is there any room to maneuverpostflop there?
B
BlueNowhere
Legend
Silver Level
Depends on flop texture, his range, my perceived range and reads. Look through old posts and stuff where people have been in this spot because you can't just be told what to do in each spot. A lot of poker (for me anyway) is learning and teaching myself why certain things are good. It's why quite often people waste time by posting HH because they get the correct replies but it doesn't help them because they don't understand why that is correct so unless the same spot comes up again then they may as well not have asked for an analysis.
W
WiZZiM
Legend
Silver Level
You want to have a reason for 3betting light in the first place, if you do have a good reason then...
Once you 3bet preflop with 30 bb in a tournament, we have no decision left on the flop.
Usual scenario.
villian Raises 2-3xBB you 3bet to 9BB putting you at around 21 BB, the pot is now usually 18-20BB depending on antes, so it's pretty much setup for a flop shove everytime, i'd say it would be a pretty huge spew not to just shove every single flop after 3betting with such a medium/short stack.
Our percieved range really doesn't matter a lot, unless you play the same players a lot, or you are in a long slow blind structured tourney or MT SNG or SNG. Most of the time your up against relative unknowns, and your just making a play because he might seem reggish, you might have looked his stats up, he might be raising a lot etc etc.
You have a point with flop texture, but again, can we really 3bet/ check fold flops? i don't really think so. c-betting is really out of the question since we're so short.
Now if you have a smaller 3bet it makes it more interesting. But i'd say we really don't want to screw around too much, i'd much prefer 3betting to 9ish BB then jamming flops, should be a pretty profitable play as long as you've picked the right opponant.
Oh, and you pick up the pot preflop a heap of times too, don't forget.
Now in regards to what hands, obviously things that are suited help, anything really that has a chance to pick up some kind of backdoor draw or whatever will help your equity with an all in situation.
Once you 3bet preflop with 30 bb in a tournament, we have no decision left on the flop.
Usual scenario.
villian Raises 2-3xBB you 3bet to 9BB putting you at around 21 BB, the pot is now usually 18-20BB depending on antes, so it's pretty much setup for a flop shove everytime, i'd say it would be a pretty huge spew not to just shove every single flop after 3betting with such a medium/short stack.
Our percieved range really doesn't matter a lot, unless you play the same players a lot, or you are in a long slow blind structured tourney or MT SNG or SNG. Most of the time your up against relative unknowns, and your just making a play because he might seem reggish, you might have looked his stats up, he might be raising a lot etc etc.
You have a point with flop texture, but again, can we really 3bet/ check fold flops? i don't really think so. c-betting is really out of the question since we're so short.
Now if you have a smaller 3bet it makes it more interesting. But i'd say we really don't want to screw around too much, i'd much prefer 3betting to 9ish BB then jamming flops, should be a pretty profitable play as long as you've picked the right opponant.
Oh, and you pick up the pot preflop a heap of times too, don't forget.
Now in regards to what hands, obviously things that are suited help, anything really that has a chance to pick up some kind of backdoor draw or whatever will help your equity with an all in situation.
B
billatx
Rock Star
Silver Level
Thanks you so much!Excellent post!Pretty much makes it all much more clear.So,how many blinds you think your stack should be to have room to bet-fold flop?45 Big Blinds is enough?I'm assuming you would bet any flop as well,even if you would fold to a raise right?
acky100
Legend
Silver Level
If we're going for folds we may aswel use a hand that has blocker value and significantly decreases nut hand combo's of villains 4bet and 3bet calling range.
Theres my argument
not even drunk this time.
B
billatx
Rock Star
Silver Level
Like!Certainly ''playing without your cards'' should be included in the definition of ''poker''.Especially in tourneys where bluffs work much easier than cash games.So, any advise how this good be applied the right way and profitably?
Demonomania
Rock Star
Silver Level
My advice would be to limit yourself to a set range of hands to play, depending on your position.
A ton depends on whether you have a good reason for the 3bet OOP 'bluff', & if you're getting the right price to do so.
This applies to both tourneys & cash (obviously) but like you said.. it'll be much easier to put to work in tourneys.
A ton depends on whether you have a good reason for the 3bet OOP 'bluff', & if you're getting the right price to do so.
This applies to both tourneys & cash (obviously) but like you said.. it'll be much easier to put to work in tourneys.