What would you have done?

[Chris_TC]

Hey guys,

I'm not gonna tell you yet which player I was, but I'd like some input on both players.

SNG, 6 players left, blind levels 75/150
Player 1 (2155 chips) in the Small Blind, holds Kc Js
Player 2 (2015 chips) in the Big Blind, holds Ad Qc

Everbody folds to Player 1.
Player 1 raises to 500 total
Player 2 reraises to 850 total
Player 1 calls.

Flop: 10c 10h Qs

Player 1 goes all-in for 1305 chips.

What should Player 2 do here? I have a very strong opinion on this, and I'll tell you which player I was and how it ended, but I'd really like some suggestions.

Cheers

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

player 2 shoves preflop. the min reraise is horrible.

as played, player 2 has an easy call on the flop.

 

[ChuckTs]

^^^that

 

[alan1983]

Yep easy call. 10 isnt likely and you have any other queen dominated

 

[calibanboy]

Agreed with you all about everything said

 

[joeeagles]

I agree also on both points: min raise is ugly and easy call on the flop.

 

[joeeagles]

Also I want to add that you are player 2.

 

[Chris_TC]

Thanks for the input, just to clarify I was player 1 in this game.

So you would push AQ all-in preflop? Seriously? Maybe that's just a personal thing of mine, but I hate going all-in as long as I have more than 8x the BB.
Versus a pocket pair for example, AQ is a coinflip, and flipping coins to me is gambling which I only ever do when the game has become very shorthanded.

Does it not make much more sense to call with AQ preflop?
In this game I had practically never made a steal attempt from the button or the small blind (been playing super tight), so to the other players it didn't look as if I was raising there with a marginal hand (which I was).

Now, since everybody agrees that he should have called, my followup question is: should he also have called if he had not hit the queen? My reasoning for going all-in was based on the thought of having quite a bit of folding equity with this kind of board. So do you think the all-in was okay from my point of view?

And as for the outcome, just for completeness' sake. He called and was obviously a 2:1 favorite against me. I hit a 9 on the turn (straight), he hit a 10 on the river (full house).

 

[loopmeister]

If P2 misses the flop and P1 pushes (on say 9 T T), P2 folds IMO.

But but it may be a tricky decision for some, which is why I suspect DM advocates pushing pre-flop; takes that decision away, if he hasn't already won the pot (bcos, does P1 call a shove with KJ? Probably not).

 

[loopmeister]

Actually I should rephrase that in a less results-oriented way:
Does P1 call a PF shove from P2 with his likely range, given that this is a steal attempt? Probably not.

Is AQ ahead of most of P1's range that would call? Enough of the time to make the fold equity worth it.

 

[ChuckTs]

Thanks for the input, just to clarify I was player 1 in this game.

So you would push AQ all-in preflop? Yes Seriously? Yeppers. %95 of the time. Maybe that's just a personal thing of mine, but I hate going all-in as long as I have more than 8x the BB.
Versus a pocket pair for example, AQ is a coinflip, and flipping coins to me is gambling which I only ever do when the game has become very shorthanded.

Take no offense from this, but you sound like an absolute rock (or mouse, or nit, take your pick) to me. Even against a very tight player, his raising range should be very wide considering it's only 6-handed and that the whole table has folded to him in the SB. Add in the fact that he's getting shortstacked, and he could be raising nearly anything.

Does it not make much more sense to call with AQ preflop? Not in this situation, no. Not at all. Again that sounds like weak-tight play to me.
In this game I had practically never made a steal attempt from the button or the small blind (been playing super tight), so to the other players it didn't look as if I was raising there with a marginal hand (which I was).
Fair enough, but even tight players make moves. I push back with AQ because a fair amount of the time, the SB will be holding something like KJ (see your example )

Now, since everybody agrees that he should have called, my followup question is: should he also have called if he had not hit the queen?
I'm lazy, so without going into calculations, he's getting 2.3:1 and will probably have to call regardless.

My reasoning for going all-in was based on the thought of having quite a bit of folding equity with this kind of board. So do you think the all-in was okay from my point of view? Ya, I like it on that flop. We can push off 99 and under, maybe AK

bold^^^

 

[Chris_TC]

(bcos, does P1 call a shove with KJ? Probably not).

I definitely wouldn't have called an all-in, no way.
Because of the min raise I only had to call 350 more, that's the only reason why I called with KJ. So of course the min raise was horrible play (even though it payed off in the end).
Against an all-in I would have folded without thinking about it.

Is AQ ahead of most of P1's range that would call? Enough of the time to make the fold equity worth it.

Okay, I see where you're coming from. Thanks.

 

[tenbob]

Thanks for the input, just to clarify I was player 1 in this game.

So you would push AQ all-in preflop? Seriously? Maybe that's just a personal thing of mine, but I hate going all-in as long as I have more than 8x the BB.

Errrr, raising P/F with 8BB leaves you not much choice but to call a push, your as well off to push yourself to get the maximum amount of fold-equity. Buy and read harrington on holdem if you disagree.

Versus a pocket pair for example, AQ is a coinflip, and flipping coins to me is gambling which I only ever do when the game has become very shorthanded.

Ok, point taken, but by pushing with AQ your also getting in vs weaker aces lots, and pushing marginal hands like KJ out Also even against a PP your getting excellent pot odds considering the monies already in the pot

Does it not make much more sense to call with AQ preflop?
NO

In this game I had practically never made a steal attempt from the button or the small blind (been playing super tight),

This is a HUGE leak in your game, you should be stealing with more marginal hands not only from the button but most LP seats, this is bread and butter stuff.

so to the other players it didn't look as if I was raising there with a marginal hand (which I was).

Unless this is a largish buy in the other players probably havnt even noticed.

Now, since everybody agrees that he should have called,
? No thats just what you think, he should have gone allin.
my followup question is: should he also have called if he had not hit the queen?
Possibly not, your shove wasnt terrible, but on the flip side I wouldnt fold 88 here either, so it counters your "flipping" arguement earlier.

My reasoning for going all-in was based on the thought of having quite a bit of folding equity with this kind of board. So do you think the all-in was okay from my point of view?

Your all-in was fine.

And as for the outcome, just for completeness' sake. He called and was obviously a 2:1 favorite against me. I hit a 9 on the turn (straight), he hit a 10 on the river (full house).

Answers in bold.

 

[Chris_TC]

Even against a very tight player, his raising range should be very wide considering it's only 6-handed and that the whole table has folded to him in the SB.

Thanks for the info.
When you say that the raising range should be very wide, can you give some pointers on how wide? Do you push with say KQs?

I'm asking because I'd like to know for my own play.

 

[joeeagles]

With the tourney being at this stage (6 players left) the issue of calling an all-in flop bet, IMO, shouldn't even come up here having AQ. Generally, without accounting of reads, if I'm in the BB and I get raised for 1/4 of my stack by SB or even the button, with anything that is A9 or above, its either fold or all-in, with a preference for the latter.

In this case a call by player 2 is terrible and a minraise is even worse, exactly because of the 66% of the times you miss the flop and then have a decision to make, which is what you are asking.

If you are player 2 calling is not an option here PF, but as played and to answer your question if he misses the flop and board is T-T-rag I probably fold and blame myself for calling.

 

[ChuckTs]

Thanks for the info.
When you say that the raising range should be very wide, can you give some pointers on how wide? Do you push with say KQs?

I'm asking because I'd like to know for my own play.

I meant raising range ie opening raise.

It would depend on my reads of the BB; if he is aggressive and defends his blinds, play a tighter range, if he's weak-tight, play any two cards. It really could vary from one end of the spectrum to the other, but folded to in the SB my range is generally looser.