What if? Episode 28

t1riel

t1riel

Legend
Joined
May 20, 2005
Total posts
6,913
Awards
1
Hey everyone and welcome to another action packed episode of What If? This actually happened to me. Live MTT. The blinds are 50/100. I'm UTG with :7d4: :7s4: . I call. One early position calls. One middle positon calls. Small blind calls. Big blind raises it to 400. I call. Early positon calls. The rest fold. Big blind is the chip leader almost 2x more than most players on the table.. Me and the early positon player is about even in chips.The flop.
:3s4: :4c4: :5s4: .
Big blind bets 400. What do you do here? I called as well as the early position player. The turn:
:7c4: .
Big blind checks. What do you do now? I checked. Early position player bets 500. Big blind folds. Interesting, now what?
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
Joined
May 20, 2005
Total posts
6,913
Awards
1
Stack sizes? Reads?

Big blind is the chip leader almost 2x more than most players on the table.. Me and the early positon player is about even in chips.

Ahem.

Litle reads since I haven't played with them before and it still early in the MTT. Big Blind seems to play a lot of hands but throws them away quickly if he leads with a bet and gets raised. Early position seems tight/aggressive.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Total posts
5,389
Seems to me that EP may be holding 6-6 and has hit the str8 so I would fold unless I could afford to lose another 500 in chips and hope for a 7 or a 3,4 or 5 for the boat.
BTW, it just makes it easier when there are actual numbers involved when considering stack sizes.
 
Last edited:
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
Joined
May 20, 2005
Total posts
6,913
Awards
1
Big Blind - 6,500
Me - 3,000
Early Position - 3,500

(after the flop)

...for sake of argument.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Not for sake of argument, stack sizes are essential to makin any decision.

If the chip leader had 20 000 in chips and everyone else 10K, then I would be much less inclined to gamble with a scary draw-heavy board like the above and would play this as small a pot as possible.

Saying that one player has twice as many chips as another really doesn't help much if we're not given their stack sizes in relation to the blinds.

Given how you played it, I think I just cold-call here in hopes to see a cheap river. A TAG player leading into a 4-straight is not something I like to see :/ You still have outs if he is holding the straight, but there's still a big chance he has an overpair, or has only paired the board. He could be semibluffing a flush draw too...pray for the 4s on the river :)
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Total posts
12,422
Is this a full table?

If so fold 77 UTG preflop, or at least raise if the table is really weak-tight.
 
pocketTWOs

pocketTWOs

Rock Star
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Total posts
107
i would put him on a big pair or big slick.
in this case you got him beat.
so i would call and see what comes on the river.
if tou hit your boat, NO worries.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
Joined
May 22, 2005
Total posts
10,637
Awards
1
All being what it is, raise. All you have on board is a str8 draw. And how many outs do you have? At least you will get a little more info that way.
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
Joined
May 20, 2005
Total posts
6,913
Awards
1
i would put him on a big pair or big slick.
in this case you got him beat.
so i would call and see what comes on the river.
if tou hit your boat, NO worries.

Well, I called and the river was :10h4: . Now what?
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
Joined
May 20, 2005
Total posts
6,913
Awards
1
Well, I called and the river was :10h4: . I checked and early position bet another 500. Should I have checked or made a bet? Do I call or raise his 500?
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Total posts
5,389
At this point you're pot committed and should call.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
Joined
May 22, 2005
Total posts
10,637
Awards
1
Like I said, A raise on the turn would have helped you. Now I would call. I don't think he hit his str8. I put him on 2 clubs or spades with an A.
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Did you consider raising at any point to define your hand ?

Preflop- Limp,call
Flop - call
Turn - call
Now your considering calling the river. At some stage you need to raise to define where you stand, then you can easily fold to some resistance.

2 words : calling - station
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Total posts
1,597
It seems almost everybody is playing this way soft. At the turn, the only hand that beats you is a hand with a six in it. So realistically pocket 6's, your play seems awful soft especially with all those draws out there. You have top set, no reason to think you are beat here. There is over 3000 in the pot you have less than that left. Push all-in here, on the turn. If he has pocket 6's here then you just lose to a better hand (although you still have 10 outs). He may also call with many hands that you beat like an over pair or a flush draw. If he has a flush draw you want to make him pay to chase, besides if he does have a flush draw he may call the all-in here but not on the river if he misses. Its a MTT, you need to accumulate chips. You can't play scared, especially with top set and only one holding that's ahead of you that even if by some miricle he should have you still have plenty of outs to beat. This screams PUSH PUSH PUSH.

After the river there is still nothing to be afraid of here (unless he holds 10,10). Unfortunatly nopw alot of hands that would have called a raise on the turn (flush draws, maybe even over pairs) will not call a river raise. Any hand that does call the raise on the river might have you beat. Probably just call here but I wouldn't be there to begin with because I would have all my chips in the middle with top set after the turn.

If you aren't going to be aggressive with top set what are you going to be aggressive with. You don't often have the absolute nuts. This is pretty darn close.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
Joined
May 25, 2005
Total posts
5,587
Did you consider raising at any point to define your hand ?

Preflop- Limp,call
Flop - call
Turn - call
Now your considering calling the river. At some stage you need to raise to define where you stand, then you can easily fold to some resistance.

2 words : calling - station
Yep - Tim, i really appreciate these questions - you are definately the lifeblood of the site - but you haven't progressed at all in the past year or so. You need to take control of hands from the outset, not just get dragged along - then you wouldn't face questions like this (which to be honest, are total guesswork - he's either got the 6 or he hasn't!). Try doing what Chris Ferguson and Phil Gordon suggest in your next game - dont call AT ALL, raise or fold (if you dont think a hand is good enough to raise with, dump it - will save you from donking your chips off in hands like this).
 
D

dsm420

Guest
Joined
Oct 30, 2006
Total posts
12
you have top set and folding is not % play. you're gonna call anything on river. if you're gonna call all-in on river bet all-in on turn.
 
JessieBear15331

JessieBear15331

Guest
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Total posts
1,022
Yep - Tim, i really appreciate these questions - you are definately the lifeblood of the site - but you haven't progressed at all in the past year or so. You need to take control of hands from the outset, not just get dragged along - then you wouldn't face questions like this (which to be honest, are total guesswork - he's either got the 6 or he hasn't!). Try doing what Chris Ferguson and Phil Gordon suggest in your next game - dont call AT ALL, raise or fold (if you dont think a hand is good enough to raise with, dump it - will save you from donking your chips off in hands like this).


Hmmmmmm...rude much?
I was under (I guess the wrong) impression that this forum is for aquiring skills by asking questions or giving advice. Yes, there were flaws in Tim's play, but to be blatantly rude and sarcastic in your response just shows ignorance. Use CONSTRUCTIVE criticism!!!
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
Joined
May 25, 2005
Total posts
5,587
Use CONSTRUCTIVE criticism!!!
What's this then?

You need to take control of hands from the outset, not just get dragged along - then you wouldn't face questions like this (which to be honest, are total guesswork - he's either got the 6 or he hasn't!). Try doing what Chris Ferguson and Phil Gordon suggest in your next game - dont call AT ALL, raise or fold (if you dont think a hand is good enough to raise with, dump it - will save you from donking your chips off in hands like this).

Nothing would give me greater pleasure to see Tim win a tournament and stop playing 50 cent SnG's - My post was rude i know, but it's "tough love". I know there is probably a poker player under there, but i've cut back a lot on these Hand Analysis questions, simply because it has become apparent that certain people (not mentioning any names cos you'll fly to his defence again) are asking posting the same hands, and getting the same responses they were getting 3, 6, 9 months ago (and it honestly isn't just Tim - people on site say the site games are the best games they play in - the old Titan games were the opposite, they were guaranteed to be the worst, with the worst calling stations, flush chasers, over bettors, hand showers you'd ever see - is it more helpful to give advice / make comments when they haven't been asked for, or to say nothing (and take the dough)?
 
JessieBear15331

JessieBear15331

Guest
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Total posts
1,022
I would have gone to anyone's defense, in this situation. I understand there was a nugget of constructive criticism in there, but there was sarcasm above it-so it was difficult to process anything kind after it. I can't speak for Tim, but I believe these are done for fun. I am not angry eith you, just sarcasm bothers me.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
Joined
May 25, 2005
Total posts
5,587
There was no sarcasm - if you are talking about "Tim, i really appreciate these questions - you are definately the lifeblood of the site" that's not sarcastic, it's really what I think. And yes, Tim can speak for himself and he has (he said "thanks").
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
You all know rob's style....Tim (and jess) you guys have to take his posts with a grain of salt. Regardless how 'rude' they come out...he means well :)

I have to agree with both rob and tb though - you have to put a raise in somewhere in this hand to define both your and your opponents' holdings! It's either you call to the end and risk getting outdrawn, or you lead and at least narrow your opponent's holding down to get a better idea of what to do next.
 
F

Freakakanus

Legend
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Total posts
3,349
Reraise all-in on the turn at least if you aren't going to lead out with your set.
You really had no idea where you were during this entire hand did you?
If you are beat so be it, but as it stands now you are pot committed and should call regardless.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Total posts
12,422
Hey everyone and welcome to another action packed episode of What If? This actually happened to me. Live MTT. The blinds are 50/100. I'm UTG with :7d4: :7s4: . I call MISTAKE - fold. One early position calls. One middle positon calls. Small blind calls. Big blind raises it to 400. I call MISTAKE - fold. Early positon calls. The rest fold. Big blind is the chip leader almost 2x more than most players on the table.. Me and the early positon player is about even in chips.The flop.
:3s4: :4c4: :5s4: .
Big blind bets 400. What do you do here? I called MISTAKE - raise as well as the early position player. The turn:
:7c4: .
Big blind checks. What do you do now? I checked MISTAKE - bet. Early position player bets 500. Big blind folds. Interesting, now what?

So yeah every street is horrible. ;)

Basically, your poor preflop decision led to a tricky flop decision, and your poor preflop and flop decisions led to an awkward turn decision. As played you have an awkward decision on any river that isn't the case 7, too.

Cut out the mistakes early in a hand and you make your subsequent decisions that much easier.
 
Top