Two hands from the FT CC Freerolls-- two bad calls?

[aliengenius]

Here are the two hands which basically took me out of the two freerolls yesterday on Full Tilt.

With both these calls I went with my read of the specific player-- both were playing way way too many hands, and everyone at the table was pretty much letting them get away with it, check folding to any bets, and generally letting the aggressor win uncontested.

1. I really didn't think either one necessarily had to have a hand here.
2. I really really hate making calls like these, but have been trying to avoid making so many "professional" laydowns.

fulltiltpoker Game #2089332566: Cardschat.com Freeroll (14217475), Table 2 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:29:01 ET - 2007/03/28
Seat 1: CivFan (2,525)
Seat 2: Stellarock (2,615), is sitting out
Seat 3: Macman1234 (975)
Seat 4: chaosscream (1,200), is sitting out
Seat 5: bruceybruce2 (1,595)
Seat 6: siigh (1,245), is sitting out
Seat 7: Korto (418)
Seat 8: badaZZ1337 (3,175)
Seat 9: aliengenius (2,640)
badaZZ1337 posts the small blind of 25
aliengenius posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [Ad Kc]
CivFan raises to 100
Stellarock folds
Macman1234 folds
chaosscream folds
bruceybruce2 folds
siigh folds
Korto folds
badaZZ1337 folds
aliengenius raises to 400
CivFan calls 300
*** FLOP *** [3h 2d Jh]
aliengenius bets 680
CivFan raises to 2,125, and is all in
aliengenius has 15 seconds left to act
aliengenius calls 1,445
CivFan shows [5s As]
aliengenius shows [Ad Kc]
*** TURN *** [3h 2d Jh] [4d]
CivFan: nc
*** RIVER *** [3h 2d Jh 4d] [Ts]
Macman1234: password is up stella
CivFan shows a straight, Five high
aliengenius shows Ace King high
CivFan wins the pot (5,075) with a straight, Five high
badaZZ1337: nice
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,075 | Rake 0
Board: [3h 2d Jh 4d Ts]
Seat 1: CivFan showed [5s As] and won (5,075) with a straight, Five high
Seat 2: Stellarock didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Macman1234 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: chaosscream didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: bruceybruce2 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: siigh didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Korto (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: badaZZ1337 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: aliengenius (big blind) showed [Ad Kc] and lost with Ace King high

I thought this guy could be shoving with a lot of hand, including the flush draw. I have two overs that might be good as back up, so I called.

Ok this guys sucks out on me (7 outs twice, he's about the same % as he was preflop with is dominated ace). So the call was "correct" here (according to Sklansy's theory in that I did what I would do if I could see his cards). I think this hand influenced the next one...

FullTiltPoker Game #2091141348: Cardschat.com Freeroll (14217565), Table 43 - 150/300 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:49:00 ET - 2007/03/28
Seat 1: timbly (11,175)
Seat 2: khaledsreal (8,236)
Seat 3: dakota-xx (2,642)
Seat 4: MyBad25 (5,780)
Seat 5: aliengenius (11,255)
Seat 7: DaR1287 (10,275)
Seat 8: deathjuice2 (25,510)
Seat 9: STC_Die (6,605)
timbly antes 25
khaledsreal antes 25
dakota-xx antes 25
MyBad25 antes 25
aliengenius antes 25
DaR1287 antes 25
deathjuice2 antes 25
STC_Die antes 25
STC_Die posts the small blind of 150
timbly posts the big blind of 300
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [9h 9s]
khaledsreal calls 300
STC_Die: lucky lil...i dont know why i called u with 22
deathjuice2: do you know if you can do the bodog freerolls w/o depositing money firsT?
dakota-xx has 15 seconds left to act
dakota-xx folds
MyBad25 folds
aliengenius raises to 1,000
DaR1287 calls 1,000
khaledsreal: lol
deathjuice2 folds
STC_Die folds
timbly folds
khaledsreal calls 700
*** FLOP *** [3s 6c Kh]
STC_Die: dont play there
khaledsreal checks
aliengenius bets 1,900
deathjuice2: y not?
DaR1287 has 15 seconds left to act
dakota-xx: i know u can for the cc ones
dakota-xx: prob others too
DaR1287 is sitting out
DaR1287 has timed out
DaR1287 folds
DaR1287 has returned
khaledsreal raises to 7,211, and is all in
aliengenius calls 5,311
khaledsreal shows [Kd 8s]
aliengenius shows [9h 9s]
*** TURN *** [3s 6c Kh] [7s]
DaR1287: i jus folded pocket queens
*** RIVER *** [3s 6c Kh 7s] [Tc]
khaledsreal shows a pair of Kings
aliengenius shows a pair of Nines
khaledsreal wins the pot (18,072) with a pair of Kings
khaledsreal: wow
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 18,072 | Rake 0
Board: [3s 6c Kh 7s Tc]
Seat 1: timbly (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: khaledsreal showed [Kd 8s] and won (18,072) with a pair of Kings
Seat 3: dakota-xx folded before the Flop
Seat 4: MyBad25 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: aliengenius showed [9h 9s] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 7: DaR1287 folded on the Flop
Seat 8: deathjuice2 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: STC_Die (small blind) folded before the Flop

I really thought this guy could just be making a move here trying to punish my continuation bet. I took a lot of crap at the table for the call (you can see the one guy claims he folded QQ), but did the have to have a king there? I don't think he did. Trying not to be results oriented, however, I think this is probably a fold.
As a side note, how does this guy push here?! Like no one would ever raise preflop with a king better than eight...?


In the first one I maybe have outs, and the guy maybe is pushing a draw. In the second one I am clearly not against a draw.

How much weight do you put in reads of the players here, and how many times do you just fold to aggression like this?

What percentage of times to guys need to be making plays here to make calling ok (some % of the time?)?

 

[Stefanicov]

imo both calls were bad calls basically for the sme reason to call a bluff u hve to be beating tht bluff and in both cases u werent.

In the first example yes u were ahead but any pr beats you so is not the right move imo

In the second example any weak king beats you so to the reraise u have to fold

some1 else can tell u figures but both were bad calls in the long run

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

Why are you so willing to commit almost all of ~50BB and ~35BB stacks with Ace-high and 99 on a K-high flop, when in both cases villain has shown huge strength? Both are horrible - the first one reeks of can't-let-a-big-preflop-hand-go syndrome, and the second reeks of i-put-you-on-a-bluff-despite-the-fact-i-have-no-particular-reason-to (seriously, why exactly did you 'think he was making a move'?) syndrome.

 

[dj11]

The problem I am trying to define for my own use is what to do with AK when I don't hit the flop. I try pretty hard to take down the hand preflop against a min raise or uncontested pot. I have got to the point where about half the time I will fold the AK to a low flop, or any agression. Its that other half that has been killing me.

FWIW, yesterday I got killed several times with 99. 99, and TT, and JJ, seem to require a pop and fold strategy which also has not quite made it into my repitoir. And then there is the QQ. Damnedest hand in poker I think.....

But your question is about online reads. I watched several players manipulate what they were 'printing' for others to read. I do it occasionally myself. The trick is paying attention. Had that agressive player shown any trickiness? Had You?

Many of the players are readable. The easiest read is only that a player is fishing for a hand, 2nd easiest might be that he is chasing a draw. Harder is betting against a made hand, the higher the made hand, the lower the value bets. Usually! Unfortunately that makes many of those look just like someone chasing.

All of these reads can be manipulated online by anyone who has played enough and studied enough to try.

Yet I, and others continue to rely on what I think are reads. Only in private tourneys where you know most of the players will online reads be consistant.

One of the more usefull reads is whether opps will fold to your agression. If you read that in an opp, with past evidence, and he decides to play, watch out.
And then there is the most important thing I know of about reads. Acting on the reads I think I get. In the back of my mind, intuition (reads) tells me to fold, while foremost in my mind ego(pride) clicks that call or raise button. No matter I got the good read, I acted on it as a bad read.

It's early here, and I may just be mumbling......:joyman:

 

[alan1983]

i dont see why you interpreted a check raise as a bluff here.

Keep in mind you were preflop raiser. What reason could he have to believe you didnt hit flop? Sure he could have A6 or whatever, but when you say you thought he was bluffing i think youre just talking yourself into calling these hands...

 

[aliengenius]

First, I am beating a bluff in both cases.

I was talking myself into these calls, mostly because I wanted to experiment (it's a freeroll) with making some more calls in situations like this.

Clearly taken out of context these are terrible calls, and are they are pretty routine folds for me, usually (especially the second one).

Surely you don't always fold the first one, as this is a pretty good spot for someone to semi-bluff a flush draw (turns out he had only the gutshot).

I'm just trying to gage where you guys draw the line as far as how "maniacal" some has to be playing before you just decide to call them down.

I mean, this guy is playing K8o utg/oop for a rasie, then check raising all in like tp no kicker is a monster (like I would never raise w AK or KQ preflop).
Isn't he only going to get called by a better hand?
oops, guess not lol

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

First, I am beating a bluff in both cases.

- How likely is it that villain is bluffing?

- What, aside from a bluff, are you beating?

 

[aliengenius]

I thought fairly likely in both cases, more so in the first.
I was right in the first case, I was wrong in the second case, but as I said, I wanted to experiment with making some "big calls" (vs big laydowns).

I'm not beating anything except the bluff. I recognize that fact.

Again, I just want to know, do you ever just put someone on a move/air? In what context?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Define 'fairly likely' in terms of a percentage range. 30-40% likely they're bluffing? 50%? More?

...and yeah, of course sometimes I can make similar plays, but I usually account for how much 'sense' villain's actions make, for example if someone who isn't a slowplayer calls flop/turn bets and leads at a completely blank river, or when a donk grossly overbets a flop or when a notorious slowplayer raises my continuation bet on an uncoordinated board, of course I'll be suspicious.

There appears to be little to be 'suspicious' about in either of these hands though. On both occasions the respective villains have done a good enough job of representing strength for me to be able to easily fold.

In hand 1 you're adamant there's a big chance villain is making a move with a flush draw - well even if he is you're not in great shape against a flush draw. In hand 2 there are no draws out there, so you distort your thinking to the more general "he's making a move on me". In both examples you're just trying to justify making 'heroic' calls without actually thinking about the situation at hand.

It's a freeroll, and I do stupid crap like this in freerolls too sometimes. But if this is the norm for you, you have a leak that needs fixing.

 

[drtofu66]

I wanted to experiment (it's a freeroll)

You're not the only one with this attitude in freerolls.

 

[TheRifle]

What I liked most about these hands is that somewhere between the two you managed to move from almost being out (c100 chips) to 10k so firstly congratulations on that real achievement.

Now, the not so good. First hand, I don't mind your play pre-flop or on the flop. But to call the all-in with AK high is brave given the two stack sizes. If you had twice as many chips as the other guy then you can call but not when you could cripple yourself. If you are a good player and are going to make those type of plays wait until you have the chips to do it.

Second hand, you have no need to raise so much here. It's best to stealth 99 (and lower pp through imho). Depends again on stack sizes, here I would call and try to see the flop. All low cards on the flop or a 9 and no obvious draws, I would most probably be aggressive (depends on whether I read the opponent as aggressive and wanted him to bet into me). King or Ace or an aggressive bet AND no 9 on the flop, I would be very cautious. So I agree with others here, it is a bad call.

In fact given chip stacks both are bad calls, I try to remember
-> it is a very different game when you let 3 players see the flop no matter what starting hand you have even AA.
-> people can play any hand. In freerolls they are even more likely to do so
-> idiots that you know are bluffing or being too aggressive can be lucky and cripple you so have something good to crush them with before taking them on. They'll get found out sooner or later and it doesn't have to be you.

I can't stress the last point enough if you want to make final tables, etc.

 

[aliengenius]

Rifle-- thanks for the complement, but the hands are from two different tournaments! I am usually of the mind cheap flop, no set no bet with pairs like 99 as well, but sometimes I mix it up. I wanted to isolate the utg limper.

Chris, just so you don't think I'm a total idiot, here's me folding an over-pair:

pokerstars GAME #8849259211: TOURNAMENT #44301409, $10+$1 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL I (10/20) - 2007/03/11 - 12:28:08 (ET)
Table '44301409 13' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: he1678 (4910 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: GaryWayne1 (5230 in chips)
Seat 3: jamesc7 (4980 in chips)
Seat 4: SlackerTab (11500 in chips)
Seat 5: cehond (4410 in chips)
Seat 6: bermigirl (5755 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: L.Schumner (8400 in chips)
Seat 8: GarrySmutts (5215 in chips)
Seat 9: uncforte (5800 in chips)
bermigirl: posts small blind 10
L.Schumner: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to L.Schumner [8s 8c]
GarrySmutts: calls 20
uncforte: raises 80 to 100
he1678: folds
GaryWayne1: folds
jamesc7: calls 100
SlackerTab: folds
cehond: folds
bermigirl: folds
L.Schumner: calls 80
GarrySmutts: calls 80
*** FLOP *** [2s 4s 7h]
L.Schumner: checks
GarrySmutts: checks
uncforte: bets 220
jamesc7: calls 220
L.Schumner: folds
GarrySmutts: folds
*** TURN *** [2s 4s 7h] [4h]
uncforte: bets 460
jamesc7: raises 460 to 920
uncforte: calls 460
*** RIVER *** [2s 4s 7h 4h] [Jh]
uncforte: checks
jamesc7: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
uncforte: shows [Qh Qd] (two pair, Queens and Fours)
jamesc7: mucks hand
uncforte collected 2690 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2690 | Rake 0
Board [2s 4s 7h 4h Jh]
Seat 1: he1678 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: GaryWayne1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: jamesc7 mucked [9s 9h]
Seat 4: SlackerTab folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: cehond (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: bermigirl (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: L.Schumner (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: GarrySmutts folded on the Flop
Seat 9: uncforte showed [Qh Qd] and won (2690) with two pair, Queens and Fours

 

[joeeagles]

Well sir, if I wanted to argue the first call you pretty much shut me up with that reference to Sklansky's theory. It is, indeed, true that knowing his cards and counting only 7 outs he's an underdog so you should make that call every time. Not knowing his cards its a pretty gutsy call that I probably wouldn't of made. I have to admit though that I would have folded for another reason, certainly not because I was concerned he would have hit a gutshot straight!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for the second hand you should have folded, since the player was in the BB, called your PF raise and check-raised you after the flop. You have to give him credit for some kind of a hand, since he's going all in against a bigger stack. It turns out he played that hand like a bonehead, getting very lucky in the process (how do people get away with such stupid plays?). You certainly did the right thing betting the flop, making the other player fold QQ which happens frequently in that situation, but faced by that all-in raise a laydown was the right thing to do in my opinion.