TT OOP vs. 3bet??

[neilv93]

26 players left, I've doubled up to 24k which is around the average of 20BB at 600/1200.

I pick up TT UTG+1 and make it 2500. The button pops it back to 6600.

Now, I've played against this guy before and he's a massive calling station and typically quite loose. With that said, he had just doubled up before me and covers me.

In this position I was generally thinking it would either be a shove or a fold and in the end I folded. Thoughts? I'm not really too keen on flatting and reluctantly having to fold on the AQ7 board and a low board I'd end up getting it in anyway.

 

[Marcwantstowin]

Hi Neil.

As you say your opponent plays loose, perhaps you should have considered all the options before you entered the pot. I personally would not have raised unless I was prepared to go all-in eventually, otherwise, you would have just wasted 2500 chips? Gl in the future...............

 

[juninhuaristoteles]

Me too, before bet I look if I'm really prepared to go all-in.

 

[neilv93]

He seems really strong in this situation so I probably made the correct fold but it bothered me doing it! So the best play would've been to open-shove or not play the hand at all?

 

[horizon12]

In micro limits fold will be good , passive players most of the time will have only top range JJ+ AK when make 3bet. But in higher limits i am shove with 20bb.

 

[hffjd2000]

The passive side of him make you think twice why he 3bet.

Another thing, we dont know where we stand on the flop if high cards appear.

 

[Poker Orifice]

He seems really strong in this situation so I probably made the correct fold but it bothered me doing it! So the best play would've been to open-shove or not play the hand at all?

No > "So the best play would've been to open-shove or not play the hand at all?"

More often than not you're going to be going with it ... but 'it depends'. It's villain dependent and our image (what we figure his read is of us).
As you've stated, he seems really strong in this spot.... because one would assume that he's figuring you to be quite strong in this spot. (what range would HERO be typically opening in this spot on these stack sizes at this stage in this situation? What range would HERO be opening & considering folding in this spot 'vs.' opening & gii?)
I would think that we've got to believe that villain is thinking we're likely never folding in this spot.
What parts of villain's range would more likely 3bet to this size vs. just 3bai?

It's villain dependent. I don't like folding 'but' I could find a fold vs. some players.
(there's a couple of good HH examples that are very similiar to this hand in WinningPokerTournaments - OneHandAtATime Vol.3
I'll try to go dig one up.

 

[sunshine0410]

I don't like calliing. Sometimes I would go all in and sometimes I would fold. This depends on how much he would fold on a allin or call with a worse pair.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I don't like calliing. Sometimes I would go all in and sometimes I would fold. This depends on how much he would fold on a allin or call with a worse pair.

Do you really think villain is EVER folding? I think it'd be safe to say they are NEVER folding (they're short... & have an SPR of '1')


I didn't realize this was micros so it is likely
fold > shove >>>>>>>>>>...... call

 

[xxMorpheusxx]

I usually make a plan for the hand before I raise. I know who I will call and who I will fold to.

I'd probably muck in that situation if he's light he has AQ and even then we're just flipping.

 

[cory3333]

I think its a shove most of the time

 

[Ambur]

In general - shove. imo

calling is terrible and fold is safe (possible). imo

 

[aolguin3]

Probably shove instead of just raising or just call the BB and avoid losing those extra chips.

 

[xxMorpheusxx]

He said villian is passive. In a vaccum I think this is a profitable shove. Prob best to just fold though if we have reads that he is passive. Weights his range to premiums.

 

[AviCKter]

If its a micro stake, I would shove and hope for the best. If its a higher stakes, fold and move on.

 

[neilv93]

It was a £40+4 tournament, or $60+6 for the Americans among us. Whether that classes as 'micro' is beyond me but I would have figured it's not?

Nonetheless, thanks for the feedback. Someone mentioned limp/folding but when is that ever profitable? Surely if there's a limp and you wake up on the button with even 66/77 you're making a raise so I don't love that play.

I think I made the right fold. Even though he's quite passive, I don't think he's 3-betting over a quarter of his stack and then FOLDING to my potential 4-bet-shove. Additionally, as someone above said, if he's got the top of his range in JJ+ then I'm crushed. Even AJ or any other form of two overcards then I'm still over flipping for my tournament life at 53-57%.

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

Do we have any 3b stats on the villain? If he has a particularly high 3b, I'd always jam. If he's particularly passive pre, I think fold is fine.

 

[neilv93]

Do we have any 3b stats on the villain? If he has a particularly high 3b, I'd always jam. If he's particularly passive pre, I think fold is fine.

It was live so no actual stats.

 

[SnowedIn]

Probably a shove, but can't really tell without knowing payout structure

 

[Karozi615]

easy fold, ICM.

UTG open ----> never a bluff

therefore villains 3bet is all value hands

value hands? what are those?
AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ and SOMETIMES 99/88 depending on the player

How are tens doing against that range?

BAD.

We have 20 big blinds. Let's fold and then double up twice, before we know it we'll be at the final table.

By the way, a lot of the time people on here are just blatantly wrong, I absolutely do not think that shipping tens here is bad. Shipping tens here is fine, and I would likely do it from time to time. However, just knowing that the button confidently 3bet a UTG open makes me very very very concerned and I would anticipate in a vacuum we have about 30% equity against that range. So its close. Its quite close. If we have 15 big blinds a shove seems so much more simple but with 20 big blinds thats a really nice squeezing stack and I think with our skill/evaluate we can find a better spot.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

20bb. You don't open shove TT. You definitely don't limp TT and you definitely don't open fold TT. Which leaves: standard raise. So good job!

Now; vs a lot of players TT with 20bb you're gonna be happy to get it in preflop. BUT whenever a calling station RAISES your spidey sense should be tingling. I think it's a good fold, actually.

All in all; I think you nailed this hand. Well played.