Tricky situation

[MrBove]

pokerstars Game #14136273231: Tournament #71752693, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2007/12/27 - 15:51:37 (ET)
Table '71752693 3' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: RAB1968 (4240 in chips)
Seat 4: robonky (6015 in chips)
Seat 5: AB10691069 (1470 in chips)
Seat 6: mcb13100 (4590 in chips)
Seat 7: Centrifuge (5530 in chips)
Seat 9: MrBove (5245 in chips)
RAB1968: posts the ante 25
robonky: posts the ante 25
AB10691069: posts the ante 25
mcb13100: posts the ante 25
Centrifuge: posts the ante 25
MrBove: posts the ante 25
robonky: posts small blind 100
AB10691069: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrBove [9s Ks]
mcb13100: folds
Centrifuge: calls 200
MrBove: raises 300 to 500
RAB1968: folds
robonky: folds
AB10691069: folds
Centrifuge: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [8c Ac 2s]
Centrifuge: checks
MrBove: ?


So two of the chip leads going into it here. I saw Centrifuge limping and I read him as a strong player, so I figured he had a marginal hand and just wanted to see a cheap flop, and didn’t want to raise because he’s in early position. So I decided to pressure him. I figured I was up against 2 high cards or a lower pair.

The ace on the flop is the only thing that scared me. But he checked. Was he trying to trap me with an ace? Maybe he had ace rag but that would have been an unusual play for him. Small pairs are possibilities, if he had a higher pair preflop he would have raised. What would you do?

 

[lottomode777]

Flop: Bet, minraise any raise
Turn: Bet, minraise any raise
River: shove all in.

Scratch that, I wouldn't even raise with K 9 suited in the first place.
Always take the next limp when you have squat.

 

[MrBove]

The table had been tight, why I elected to raise. Probably not the best idea with 4 people to act behind me, in retrospect.

 

[switch0723]

Flop: Bet, minraise any raise
Turn: Bet, minraise any raise
River: shove all in.

Please dont ever do that.

Good raise pre flop after early player shows weakness. You just need to put in a standard c bet here, he has checked for 2 reasons, he either fears the ace which is the most likely so a cbet will take it down 9/10 times. If he re raises your c bet however you need to be laying it down since he has obviously hit the flop hard. Whenever you raise pre flop and miss the flop, the best flop you can hope for is a rag flop with an ace on to represent and thats what you got. Therefore standar 1/2 -3/4 pot c bet here takes this

 

[Genso Hikki]

I can't see the pre-flop raise here with K,9 in early position. Although I agree you need to raise if you intend to play this hand, I don't see any reason to play it with four players left to act after you.

You could put in a standard c-bet, but I'm confused as to why an ace is the only thing you're afraid of. You hit none of that flop. All he had to do is pair one of his cards and you're behind, hell, even if he has K,10 or K,J you're killed. I might check and fold to a raise then kick myself for coming in to that hand in the first place.

 

[Egon Towst]

You hit none of that flop. All he had to do is pair one of his cards and you're behind, hell, even if he has K,10 or K,J you're killed. I might check and fold to a raise then kick myself for coming in to that hand in the first place.

I concur.

 

[peterswellman]

I would stab at the flop myself here and if he calls you would put him on a weak ace in my view. Try the turn again if he just calls and no spade hits. If you were jammy enough you might pick up a flush draw on the turn.

 

[dj11]

I will generally favor the conservative approach here as in conserving my stack and not chasing non-existent flushes!

While again you show some savvy here by not just limping in, you haven't shown us (yet) you know how to give up on a hand. You chased in yesterdays installment, and in that case caught, but this (so far) has not developed into a hand worth sticking around for. My gut feeling here is that the chances of you catching even a pair are less than the chances villain is slow playing an ace. Something got him to call your raise. Included in everybodies 'something' is a suited or big ace, along with a variety of pairs. Post flop you also have the club draw facing you. Since you raised up front he can expect you to push when he checks. You say you see him as a strong player, and from that I will infer if he hits you won't know about it till you're dead.

Bottom line for me here is that while the button raise is good, the call was not good for you.

 

[Genso Hikki]

I would stab at the flop myself here and if he calls you would put him on a weak ace in my view. Try the turn again if he just calls and no spade hits. If you were jammy enough you might pick up a flush draw on the turn.

And if no flush draw comes on the turn? Or no other card that helps his hand? Then what? Take another stab and commit more chips into what is most likely going to end up being a losing effort?

 

[peterswellman]

And if no flush draw comes on the turn? Or no other card that helps his hand? Then what? Take another stab and commit more chips into what is most likely going to end up being a losing effort?

Bear in mind i'm not condoning playing K9 here. I think a check call would put you behind but then there was only a flat call pre-flop and then a call of the raises. You have to stab here because you have position on the guy. We get no information from the thread starter on any of the players so of course my play would be different for a maniac to a tight player.

 

[c9h13no3]

I think its worth firing 750 chips at this, unless our table image is total crap.

 

[MrBove]

Sound arguments from everyone. I'm not saying I made the right play here. But I am starting to take these decisions more seriously and think them through a lot more.

Here's what happened:

*** FLOP *** [8c Ac 2s]
Centrifuge: checks
MrBove: bets 1450
Centrifuge: folds
MrBove collected 1450 from pot
MrBove: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1450 | Rake 0
Board [8c Ac 2s]
Seat 2: RAB1968 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: robonky (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: AB10691069 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: mcb13100 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Centrifuge folded on the Flop
Seat 9: MrBove collected (1450)


This may be a horrible bet on my part, betting the pot. I feared if I put forth a smaller bet, he would have more of an opportunity to re-raise me. Basically I was trying to bet the right amount where I didn't have to risk too much yet it would induce a fold.

I wasn't planning on chasing anything here, as it is a 100% bluff. Had he gone over the top he would have effectively trapped me and I would have been forced to fold. I went with my instinct and threw the raise out, and it worked this time.

Critisisms are appreciated

 

[Genso Hikki]

'm glad it worked out for you, but I think you were extremely lucky here.

Just my opinion, though. Everyone here knows I'm a donk

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Preflop is okay - isolating a limper who most likely has a marginal hand is reasonable here with any two cards to be honest - I think some people here need to look a little beyond the first level "We have K9s" way of thinking. I pop it to 600-700 though to try and stop the blinds from coming along too. My only worry with raising here is that should the shortstacked BB shove we're dangerously close to being committed to call.

C-betting the flop is absolutely standard - obviously should you get called/raised you're done with the hand. Betting the pot is a little unnecessary though - there's nothing that betting the pot achieves that betting two-thirds or so of the pot doesn't achieve.

 

[switch0723]

You could put in a standard c-bet, but I'm confused as to why an ace is the only thing you're afraid of. You hit none of that flop. All he had to do is pair one of his cards and you're behind, hell, even if he has K,10 or K,J you're killed. I might check and fold to a raise then kick myself for coming in to that hand in the first place.

If you only play the flop when you hit it, you arent going to do to well in tourny or cash games. The raise pre flop is to represent strength e.g. an ace, so then he can continuation bet to get chips. This is the only real way to gain chips to go deep into a tourny, if you wait for the cards you wont get far. Also if the villain paired anything that isnt an ace he may still lay it down, and anything like k,j or k,t isnt going to call a bet.

'm glad it worked out for you, but I think you were extremely lucky here.

He wasnt extremely lucky at all, when you isolate a limper they will only hit the flop 1/3 of the time, therefore a standard c bet takes down the pot about 2/3 of hte time, therefore you are more unlucky if the opponent hit something and calls you

Preflop is okay - isolating a limper who most likely has a marginal hand is reasonable here with any two cards to be honest - I think some people here need to look a little beyond the first level "We have K9s" way of thinking. I pop it to 600-700 though to try and stop the blinds from coming along too. My only worry with raising here is that should the shortstacked BB shove we're dangerously close to being committed to call.

C-betting the flop is absolutely standard - obviously should you get called/raised you're done with the hand. Betting the pot is a little unnecessary though - there's nothing that betting the pot achieves that betting two-thirds or so of the pot doesn't achieve.

Thank you dm, at least someone agrees with what im trying to say

 

[Genso Hikki]

I have no problem raising with King, nine in a tourney, my problem is I wouldn't play it from early position. I understand you can't sit around and wait for premium hands, but I also don't think you should put the chips you have in danger after attempting to steal and then completely missing the flop. Nothing wrong with a c-bet, but my impression from the OP's post was that he felt the limper/caller was a STRONG player, and you have to attempt to put him on a range of hands once he calls your pre-flop raise. Also, he did not do a standard c-bet, he bet the pot. If he had been called, then what?

I understand what you are saying here, but I still think playing king, nine in early position is a bad idea more often than not.

And I do pretty darn well, in cash games, thank you very much, even without playing king, nine in early position. I never, EVER said you should only play the flop when you hit it, I said I wouldn't play it in this situation. Don't lecture me on points I'm not making, please.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

early position

since when was the cutoff early position when 6-handed?

 

[Genso Hikki]

Sorry, wasn't looking carefully enough to see it was six-handed, which of course does put him in the cut off. I suppose I was fixated on the OP's observation there were four people left to act behind him, which of course isn't even technicaly correct considering on player had already acted with his limp. So I didn't read the positions in the hand history close enough. Now the play makes a bit more sense to me, but even so, I doubt I would have raised pre-flop in that position.

Again, that's just me.

 

[MigratedLamb]

Also if the villain paired anything that isnt an ace he may still lay it down, and anything like k,j or k,t isnt going to call a bet.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the hands Kc Jc or Kc Tc. Those hands would call a bet.

 

[switch0723]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the hands Kc Jc or Kc Tc. Those hands would call a bet.

Im pretty sure they werent, since they would have said that if they meant that, they meant any k,j or k,t. But if they are on a flush draw that is good, you can bet to the river, lay it down to a club, but fire a third bullet on river to pick up a large pot with no hand