Some Rebuy Strategy examples

Irexes

Irexes

Legend
I made a thread a week or so ago about rebuy strategy and the rationale for playing loose and aggressive during the rebuy period without being daft. I also looked at the need for multiple buy-ins to really get the most out of the rebuy period and how to use the party poker rebuy trick (rebuying while allin during a hand).

Anyhoo, a couple of days ago I had a run in the first few hands of the rebuy that illustrated a lot of these things. The following hands were ridiculously fortunate for me the way they played out but I was only in them in the first place due the significantly different strategy I adopt in rebuys.

First hand of the Tourney. It's a $3 rebuy qualifier for the 200k on Party.

***** Hand History for Game 5539393438 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny: 30967172 Level: 1 Blinds(20/40) - Thursday, December 28, 09:45:11 ET 2006
Table 200K Gtd Qualifier 7 Seats Gtd Rebuy (896113) Table #13 (real money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: TOTTY69 ( 3000 )
Seat 2: griffinmole ( 3000 )
Seat 3: branephart ( 3000 )
Seat 4: KittyCat1967 ( 3000 )
Seat 5: pauli2703 ( 3000 )
Seat 6: Irexes ( 6000 )<---------I rebought while the high card was being dealt so I start the tourney with 6000 chips.
Seat 7: Atttila68 ( 3000 )
Seat 8: luckyluxon ( 3000 )
Seat 9: dazza7500 ( 3000 )
Trny: 30967172 Level: 1
Blinds(20/40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Irexes [ :3h: :5d: ]

utter garbage and in a freeze I tick autofold

TOTTY69 calls [40]
griffinmole raises [80]
branephart folds
KittyCat1967 calls [80]
pauli2703 folds

This looks like a multiway pot and I can happily speculate 80 chips of my 6000 even though he's raised. I'll fold if I miss the flop.

Irexes calls [80]
Atttila68 folds
luckyluxon raises [100]
dazza7500 calls [80]
TOTTY69 calls [80]
griffinmole raises [80]
KittyCat1967 folds

This is great, someone wants to build a pot, if I hit hard I'm getting paid. Must let go if I only connect a little though. Another 80 with my power 53o!

Irexes calls [80]
luckyluxon calls [40]
dazza7500 calls [40]
TOTTY69 calls [40]
** Dealing Flop ** [ :6c:, :qh:, :3d: ]

Not good. Any action here and I'm out. No point bluffing or semi-bluffing in a rebuy period.

luckyluxon checks
dazza7500 checks
TOTTY69 checks
griffinmole bets [40]

For 40 I have to call given the pot size. A decent bet here and I'd be out.

Irexes calls [40]
luckyluxon calls [40]
dazza7500 calls [40]
TOTTY69 calls [40]
** Dealing Turn ** [ :3c: ]

Ding! Ding! Ding! I'm getting all my chips in here regardless.

luckyluxon checks
dazza7500 checks
TOTTY69 checks
griffinmole bets [40]

I push here, and immediately rebuy. If they fold I'll have a stack of about 10000 (including my rebuy), if someone calls and I win it's going to be around 13000 and if I lose I'll still have the 6000 I started the hand with. Win, win, win!

Irexes is all-In [5800]
luckyluxon folds
dazza7500 folds
Re-buy: luckyluxon re-buys 3000 chips and the chip stack increases from 2800 chips to 5800 chips.
TOTTY69 is all-In [2800]
griffinmole folds
** Dealing River ** [ :9s: ]

TOTTY69 shows [ :6d:, :ah: ]two pairs, Sixes and Threes.
Irexes shows [ :3h:, :5d: ]three of a kind, Threes.
Irexes wins 3000 chips from side pot #1 with three of a kind, Threes.
Irexes wins 6720 chips from the main pot with three of a kind, Threes.
Re-buy: Irexes re-buys 3000 chips and the chip stack increases from 9720 chips to 12720 chips.

Yup he called with a pair of sixes!!!!!!! Aren't rebuys wonderful :)

I've got 12720 and I'm a happy man after one hand.


A few hands later and I've rebought again while allin and taken another 3000 off someone with a coinflip. Due to the "Party rebuy trick", the bonus of getting in a coinflip with someone with 3000 chips is that if you lose you have the same amount of chips you started the hand with and if you win you have 6000 more. This is why I play rebuys at a level where I'm happy to rebuy 5 to 10 times and expect to rebuy at least 5 (in a $3 I'll rebuy 15-20 times happily, though in this one it was only 5)

Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: TOTTY69 ( 2960 )
Seat 2: griffinmole ( 18580 )
Seat 3: branephart ( 2920 )
Seat 4: KittyCat1967 ( 3000 )
Seat 6: Irexes ( 21220 )
Seat 7: Atttila68 ( 3160 )
Seat 8: luckyluxon ( 5520 )
Seat 10: wazinoz ( 17640 )
Seat 5: elohesre ( 2980 )
Seat 9: MAZZA1811 ( 8920 )
Trny: 30967172 Level: 1
Blinds(20/40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Irexes [ :9h: :js: ] <----nice implied odds hand
griffinmole calls [40]
branephart folds
KittyCat1967 calls [40]
elohesre calls [40]
Irexes calls [40]
Atttila68 calls [40]
luckyluxon calls [40]
wazinoz calls [20]
TOTTY69 checks

Smashing multiway pot. Must be cautious about the other big stacks though.

** Dealing Flop ** [ :8d:, :as:, :10s: ]

Open ended straight draw, lovely.

wazinoz checks
TOTTY69 checks
griffinmole bets [40]
KittyCat1967 folds
elohesre calls [40]
Irexes calls [40]
Atttila68 folds
luckyluxon calls [40]
wazinoz folds
TOTTY69 calls [40]
** Dealing Turn ** [ :qd: ]

Bingo!

TOTTY69 checks
griffinmole bets [40]
elohesre raises [1400]
Irexes is all-In [21140]

All in and rebuy with what is the second nuts to JK. If someone got that I'll pay them. In a freezeout I'd be worried and play it slower, but here I'll band on calls from two pairs and Aces to see me through.

luckyluxon folds
TOTTY69 is all-In [2880]
griffinmole is all-In [18460]
elohesre is all-In [1500]
** Dealing River ** [ :4d: ]
elohesre shows [ :ah:, :10c: ]two pairs, Aces and Tens.
Irexes shows [ :9h:, :js: ]a straight Eight to Queen.
TOTTY69 shows [ :8s:, :qc: ]two pairs, Queens and Eights.
griffinmole shows [ :qs:, :5s: ]a pair of Queens.

Irexes wins 2640 chips from side pot #3 with a straight, Eight to Queen.
Irexes wins 31200 chips from side pot #2 with a straight, Eight to Queen.
Irexes wins 60 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, Eight to Queen.
Irexes wins 12040 chips from the main pot with a straight, Eight to Queen.
Re-buy: Irexes re-buys 3000 chips and the chip stack increases from 45940 chips to 48940 chips.

A staggering hand and the most amazing part was griffinmole's call with a pair of queens and a flush draw. Incredibly 49000 chips in the first level due to a bit of fishing and a lot of rebuying.



Of course I got lucky the way the above played out and it doesn't usually work as well as that, but it's very rare indeed not to end the rebuy with at least 20000 and then add on.

What I see while doing this is a lot of players buying in for 3000 chips, losing them and then rebuying again. They spend the same amount as I do, but they don't have the huge advantage of having the extra chips in their stack. It's simple maths that if you have 3000 you can only double to 6000, while with 6000 you can make a leap to 12000, the value of these extra chips is huuuuge. In rebuy periods being the big stack if you have the ability to pick your spots, rather than dribble away chips in unecessary confrontations is great fun and makes it easy to accumulate even more.

I also can't emphasise enough how differently I play once the rebuy period ends. Poker is definately about picking the right strategy for the right situation and I think rebuy periods are as different from freezeouts as MTTs are from SnGs.

Long post. Hope there's something in there of value. I like rebuys :)



(for the record I came 16th of 240, which got me nothing as the top 8 qualified, which probably goes to show something :) )
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Oh my. There are still some fish floating about at Party then? That A6 call in the first hand is awesome.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
I can't help thinking you're really damaging your ROI with these rebuys every time you're all-in. In the last example you're increasing your tournament entry fee by 25%, and therefore reducing your ROI by up to 25% if this rebuy doesn't give you a 25% increase in expected winnings. I can't see an increase from 45940 chips to 48940 making that much of a difference. Similar story for the add-on - I never add on unless I think it's going to make a sufficient difference in my final placing, which you can estimate by looking at how far it would shift you up and down the rankings at add-on time. There has to be an optimum strategy for maximising your return, but I don't think it's "rebuy at every opportunity".
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
It's a fair comment, but I disagree. The average number of rebuys (including add-ons) in these tournaments is 3 or 4 so the payout structure reflects that. Combine this with the fact the many people bust then rebuy, or rebuy a couple of times then quit, add in the fact that many don't know how to change gears once the rebuy is over and the normal payout dynamic shifts a fair bit.

Ultimately having a stack which is usually at least twice the average at the end of the first hour is a huuuuuuge positive impact on ROI. MTTs are not about making the money, they are about making the final table and really the final 3.

If I play a $5 rebuy I treat it as a $25 investment up front and consider my ROI based on that. Yes it's possible to win by paying only $5 but highly unlikely compared to the chance of having a bigger stack pretty much guarenteed (the value of chips is of course proportionately greater in the first hour).

I've not got enough data to make a valid statistical case this would require hundreds or probably thousands of rebuys playing both ways. But based on my own experience (which of course could be wrong) I think that it is actually damaging to the ROI to play a rebuy without being prepared to actively rebuy. By not rebuying you are at a disadvantage and I suspect the ROI suffers compared to a freezeout tournament of the same buy-in.

As for the add-on I read something a long while ago that demonstrated based on $EV the minimum amount of chips required to make buying the add-on negative $ expected value. Of the top of my head it was about 10 times the starting stack, I'll try and find it.

It's certainly a fertile area for discussion and I think I need some decent maths based evidence to illustrate what I know seems counter-inutitive.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
How far would you go into the rebuy period before calling it a day and deciding to enter another tournament that is just about to start? For example, if you go bust on the last hand before the break, you'd presumably be better off investing your money in a tournament where you're going to be on a level playing field again, rather than way behind everyone else.
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

Cardschat Elite
What I see while doing this is a lot of players buying in for 3000 chips, losing them and then rebuying again. They spend the same amount as I do, but they don't have the huge advantage of having the extra chips in their stack. It's simple maths that if you have 3000 you can only double to 6000, while with 6000 you can make a leap to 12000

There is considerable truth in that. Many inexperienced players in rebuy tourneys play as if it were a freezeout and rebuy only when compelled to. That is unlikely to be a successful approach. But this is also true:

There has to be an optimum strategy for maximising your return, but I don't think it's "rebuy at every opportunity".

And I think I said something similar in Irexes` earlier rebuy thread.

This sort of thing:

in a $3 I'll rebuy 15-20 times happily, though in this one it was only 5

surely can`t be the most profitable way to approach these tournies.

My own approach is to go into a rebuy tourney with a budget figure in mind, which I will estimate based on the number of players, likely final prize pool, and my realistic goal as to where I hope to finish. This last might be Top 20, Final Table, or even Top Three, depending on the number of entrants and my expectation as to the standard of play.

I then set my budget at a figure no higher than half of my expected winnings. It will usually come out at around 3-5 buyins. Within my budget, I will cheerfully rebuy at any opportunity, with the aim of ensuring that I get to the end of the rebuy period with a comfortably above-average stack.

I will not, however, exceed the budget. If I have spent that much (or close to it) and am not on track to finish at the level I am looking for, I will accept that this is not my day and drop out of the tourney, rather than overspend in the hope of turning it around.

I agree with Bombjack about the add-on, too. If I am doing poorly, I won`t bother wasting the money. If I am doing better than expected and my position is strong, I will feel I don`t need it. I will only take the add-on if I am in a middling position, and it seems likely to improve my prospects of success.
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

Cardschat Elite
How far would you go into the rebuy period before calling it a day and deciding to enter another tournament that is just about to start? For example, if you go bust on the last hand before the break, you'd presumably be better off investing your money in a tournament where you're going to be on a level playing field again, rather than way behind everyone else.

Agreed.
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
If I bust out in the last few minutes before the break I'll usually drop out Bomb.

I'm with you on most of that Egon and usually I don't rebuy more than 5 times, but if it takes 10 I'll do it happily. The $3 is a bit an exception with it being that much cheaper (not that this justifies a decrease in ROI%), and it didn't take anything like that many.

With the skewed payout structure of MTTs the money is in the final tables and as you say the investment must be based on the likely reward. However it only takes a couple of extra top three finishes (or a win) to make all the extra rebuys worth it. Now of course this is in the loooooong run and as such is nigh on impossible to prove. I usually find that if I make the money (which in rebuys I do about 30% of the time) then they pay form themselves and a little bit. It's the increased final tables that make the difference. Of course I have no stats to demonstrate this as I've not got close to a long enough long run on rebuys :)
 
Welly

Welly

Guest
Good couple of threads on rebuys btw Irexes.

I never do the 'all-in rebuy'. I am in agreement with Bombjack on this point. I think it is capable of marginalising a ROI% over time. Mind you, I'm confident you're not as liberal as some of the others when it comes to doing it.

I prefer just to exploit other peoples craziness (as you have done), but not do the 'all-in rebuy' in the process.

It may seen insignificant when you bring the stack home for a nice win, but I just dont feel it really effects your chances enough to do it (esp when you've got to the 20k+ stacksize before the break).
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
If I bust out in the last few minutes before the break I'll usually drop out Bomb.

My point is that rebuying becomes worse and worse value the further you get through the rebuy period. Taking this to its logical conclusion, you're better off not rebuying at all, but starting in a fresh tournament when you bust out.

(This is a separate issue to taking Party's "all-in add-on", presumably a weird quirk of Party's software.)
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

Legend
Rebuy trick on Party???

Can you try to explain this to me or give me the link?

Ta
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
No problem.

All you do is rebuy while you are all in (or have less than the starting amount) during a hand.

Also worth watching for people who are doing this a lot as they are probably overplaying and you can use them to double up :)
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

Legend
ty v much

No problem.

All you do is rebuy while you are all in (or have less than the starting amount) during a hand.

Also worth watching for people who are doing this a lot as they are probably overplaying and you can use them to double up :)

I`ll be on Party tonite!!!
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Just watch out for people slow playing Aces. Bastards. :mad:

***** Hand History for Game 5560793011 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny: 31092273 Level: 1 Blinds(20/40) - Friday, January 05, 16:40:56 ET 2007
Table $5K Gtd Rebuy (899127) Table #48 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: flopkill ( $30920 )
Seat 2: Rocket1808 ( $2940 )
Seat 3: jw24242424 ( $3300 )
Seat 4: Irexes ( $8880 )
Seat 5: Madam_mim111 ( $2880 )
Seat 6: pdnb40 ( $2460 )
Seat 7: filin45 ( $5860 )
Seat 8: Bombjack_x ( $2860 )
Seat 9: Pefl5d ( $2900 )
Seat 10: linpan ( $3000 )
Trny: 31092273 Level: 1
Blinds(20/40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Bombjack_x [ Kh Qs ]
Pefl5d folds.
linpan calls [40]
flopkill folds.
Rocket1808 folds.
jw24242424 calls [40]
Irexes calls [40]
Madam_mim111 calls [40]
pdnb40 calls [40]
filin45 calls [20]
Bombjack_x is all-In.
linpan is all-In.
jw24242424 folds.
Irexes is all-In.
Madam_mim111 folds.
pdnb40 folds.
filin45 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9s, 2h, 7s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2d ]
Bombjack_x shows [ Kh, Qs ]a pair of Twos.
linpan shows [ Ts, Ah ]a pair of Twos.
Irexes shows [ Ac, As ]two pairs, Aces and Twos.
Irexes wins 5880 chips from side pot #2 with two pairs, Aces and Twos.
Irexes wins 280 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, Aces and Twos.
Irexes wins 8740 chips from the main pot with two pairs, Aces and Twos.
Re-buy: Irexes re-buys 3000 chips and the chip stack increases from 14900 chips to 17900 chips.
waiting for Bombjack_x, linpan to rebuy in 30 seconds to continue playing in the tournament
Re-buy: linpan re-buys 3000 chips and the chip stack increases from 0 chips to 3000 chips.
Player Bombjack_x finished in 572.
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

Cardschat Elite
Just watch out for people slow playing Aces. Bastards. :mad:

Unlucky for you to run into that, lol. :D

But I don`t understand why a big gamble like all-in PF with a hand like KQo if you`re not then prepared to rebuy when it hits the buffers. :confused:
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

Legend
Can I clarify something here

On Party, can u only rebuy when u r out of chips? I know on Pstars u can rebuy before the tourny starts, therfore you can start with say 3000 chips and rebuy another 3000 before the tourny gets underway.

As a side issue, I agree that the way of playing suggested is one way, I still feel playing TAG and rebuying is still a viable way.

I say this because I have sat at tables with the maniac, watching them go in hand after hand. On stars I always take the immediate rebuy. So I go from 3000 to 6000 chip immediatly. The only change I make to my TAG play is that I relax my starting hands, so if, sorry, WHEN psycho goes all in I am prepared to call with AQ, 99+ - I could even call with less depending on position. I also feel you can slow play these guys.

So the guy is back to 6000 chips and I`m on about 10000, but it has cost him 7 rebuys to have 60% of my stack. I also find they play the same way after the break.

The main down side to playing TAG in rebuys are
  1. 2 or more loose aggressive players at a table at one time means u can`t play this way - if they are both calling your chance of winning is reduced.
  2. If you are card dead u r out before you start.
  3. I aim to double up by the break(by double I mean 3000+3000 immediate rebuy+double up6000+add on4500 = roughly 16000 chips, accepting 500 will go in blinds) So a down side is that 16000 chips, if you are lucky, puts you in the top 50% of players remaining after the break. You a left with a bit of a hill to climb.
It would be interesting, if possible, to see the stats over a long period of two players at a similar level of skill playing the two ways?
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
My point is that rebuying becomes worse and worse value the further you get through the rebuy period. Taking this to its logical conclusion, you're better off not rebuying at all, but starting in a fresh tournament when you bust out.

who originally posted the thread that disproved this via math? something about buying into a tourney with a bigger prize pool and less players or something. was interesting. i have a feeling it was TB or Chris, like 7-8 months ago.
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Ron, you can rebuy with the starting amount (3000) or less. But if you have a stack of 12000 and push, you can rebuy while allin :)

Related to Joose's post, I agree and have seen the maths myself that indicate rebuying late in the rebuy and adding-on are in almost all circumstances +EV. Can't replicate the numbers myself though.

One other comment. By rebuying ROI% potentially goes down but profit in $ value may go up. Simplistically if you spend $50 and win $100 your ROI is 100% and profit is $50 if you spend $100 on rebuys to win $250 it's 66% ROI but a $150 profit. Obviously the variance is greater, but with the right bank-roll for the buyin it makes sense.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

Legend
So to clarify...

Ron, you can rebuy with the starting amount (3000) or less. But if you have a stack of 12000 and push, you can rebuy while allin :).

If I had, say 12000 chips, I was on the sb, everyone folds except the bb who has say 2000 chips, if he goes all in I would be better calling him with almost anything as I can rebuy the 3000 chips when all in, so even if I lost
I would be 1000 chips better off, although it would be at the cost of a rebuy?
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
^^ That's correct. But it's a bug in the Party software, not a general feature of rebuys. I'm sure Party will get round to fixing it at some point, although judging from the time chat hasn't been working, it may be a while.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Do you pay a fee every time you rebuy? I assumed all the rebuy money went straight into the prize pool.
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Nope, no fee, but bigger prize pools means tourneys are more attractive, so as far as Party are concerned it's a good thing I would guess.
 
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