QQ vs blind call, ace on board

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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This very same player had called my 3BB raise with 36, and hit two pair on the flop. He check-raised me all in, I called and doubled up when the river paired a different card to give me a better 2 pair.


pokerstars Game #8319203105: Tournament #42410777, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2007/02/07 - 01:07:51 (ET)
Table '42410777 18' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Nuttypoolog (4168 in chips)
Seat 3: Wein (13858 in chips)
Seat 4: 24Shack24 (16365 in chips)
Seat 5: Wisch (17919 in chips)
Seat 7: hawkins1 (7347 in chips)
Seat 8: truesyalose (4520 in chips)
Seat 9: ChuckTs (11335 in chips)
Nuttypoolog: posts the ante 50
Wein: posts the ante 50
24Shack24: posts the ante 50
Wisch: posts the ante 50
hawkins1: posts the ante 50
truesyalose: posts the ante 50
ChuckTs: posts the ante 50
Wisch: posts small blind 300
hawkins1: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [Qc Qh]
truesyalose: folds
ChuckTs: raises 1200 to 1800
Nuttypoolog: folds
Wein: folds
24Shack24: folds
Wisch: folds
hawkins1: calls 1200
*** FLOP *** [Ah 4h 2h]
hawkins1: checks
24Shack24 said, "clearly"
ChuckTs:.....
 
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Vintage82

Vintage82

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Lead out around 3000. You have the suited Q for the board so you have outs to the re-draw. Besides, if he's calling you with 3-6 to a 3x raise, i'm not so sure why you'd be scared of the Ace. Opp probably's holding something stupid like J6o, and call you down for the J high flush. :rolleyes:
 
Explosionsinthesky

Explosionsinthesky

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Lead out around 3000. You have the suited Q for the board so you have outs to the re-draw. Besides, if he's calling you with 3-6 to a 3x raise, i'm not so sure why you'd be scared of the Ace. Opp probably's holding something stupid like J6o, and call you down for the J high flush. :rolleyes:

I dont know if I like this idea all that much, what if he check raises us all in? do we call with a bare flush draw, when the pot will be laying up a price of 2.4-1?

and if we fold, we'll be down to 6535 and be into shovebot mode with 10bbs.

I think the best line is checking and reevaluating on turn. obv if we hit a heart or queen we arent getting away from this hand.
 
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ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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^^would like a little more input before I continue.

Good input guys; (in borat voice: ) I like!

Any more opinions?
 
Explosionsinthesky

Explosionsinthesky

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^^would like a little more input before I continue.

Good input guys; (in borat voice: ) I like!

Any more opinions?

I really feel like Id want to Cont-bet but I think shoving is the only thing that gets a better hand to fold, and thats a awful spot to shove here.

if we bet small like 1800, if he check raises min or something like that, hes committed to calling our shove, so I just cant see a more effective line than checking and reevaluating on turn :/
 
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Irexes

Irexes

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That's just horrible.

I'm assuming he's just plain bad here.

Two situations.

1 - he has an ace

Ordinarily someone with an ace would bet the suited flop, but if he's truly poor then he might think he's trapping with an Ace and ignoring the suited board.

If he has the ace then you are not betting him off it and you are going to be hurt if you try as he's quite possibly reraising you.

If you check then you get the chance to hit another heart (or even a queen). Of course he may wake up on the turn and take the pot. Unfortunately you are probably going to have to let him.

2 - he doesn't have an ace

If you bet he folds, unless he has a mid-high heart or a draw or a pocket pair (if he's really bad this may mean Jh3d type hands some people just won't give up the blinds).

If you check he may wake up (or even hit) on the turn and you're in even more trouble unless it's a heart.


This is really tricky, I'd be inclined to bet 2000-2500 and go from there in order to keep the initiative but checking is also good particularly if he's been passive post-flop. It's not yet a tourney defining hand but it could easily become one.


(other scenario is he has two hearts or holds the Kh, which is entirely possible in which case you are in serious bother)
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Make a standard c-bet.

If he's calling your pf raises with anything, this lessens the chance he has an Ace, and increases the chances he's missed the flop and is check-folding. To those paranoid about the check-raise - what do you do if we check behind here and villain leads a blank turn? For me, that would be a far trickier decision than responding to a flop c/r.

A c-bet takes this down the vast majority of the time. There's a case for checking and seeing a turn card, but this just affords villain the opportunity to make a lead bet that we have no idea what to make of (was he trying for a c/r on the flop with Ax or is he just bluffing now you've shown weakness?). Stab at it here and we'll have an easier time folding to a check-raise if it comes than we would have responding to a lead on a blank turn from villain if we had checked behind on the flop, simply because we've eliminated some uncertainty that we would have in responding to a turn lead (i.e. we know villain was trying for a c/r on the flop, and we know from a previous hand that a c/r appears to be a sign of strength, therefore we can act accordingly and fold). Of course if we check here and he checks the turn we're pretty much obliged to bet at that point, but anyway, c-bet that flop.
 
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joosebuck

joosebuck

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i might just check here and give him the chance to bet a lesser hand on the turn. this is kind of a wa/wb situation, but you arent that far behind to an ace. let him make a lesser flush/pair and go to town.

be ready to call that turn bet tho. and if your flush misses the turn/river, let go if he bets the river too.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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WA/WB really doesn't apply in tournament situations like this, because (a) the pot is large enough to really be worth winning here and now, as it represents like 1/3rd of the stack we started the hand with, and we don't want to induce a potential bluff because we lose far more in value when villain actually has a strong hand here then we gain in value when he's bluffing (i.e. busting out or even just losing a given number of chips has more negative value attached to it than doubling up or gaining the same given number of chips has positive value). WA/WB is more of a cash game concept because (a) stacks are invariably deeper, and (b) each chip is of a given cash value, hence losing x chips has exactly the same negative value attached to it as gaining x chips has positive value.

Of course, if we think a turn lead from villain is much more likely to be a bluff than a bet with a better hand, we can check here and call a turn lead, but given the information we have from the way the hand's played out so far and our opponent's tendencies, I don't think we can operate with any real degree of certainty about anything.
 
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Bombjack

Bombjack

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You want it to be him who has to make the tricky decision, not you.

Just shove and put him to the test.

If he has AJ- he's going to be hard-pressed to call unless the kicker is a heart, and even then he might not want to risk his tournament on it. It really looks like you have a big hand you're trying to protect against a heart draw.

Anything Ace you're not so far behind, so long as he doesn't have AxKh, which is pretty unlikely. The fold equity will make up any difference.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Well, the hand turned out to be quite a deusy! (insert sarcasm here)

I checked in fear of the ace, and the rest of the hand was pretty straightforward.

POKERSTARS GAME #8319203105: TOURNAMENT #42410777, $20+$2 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL IX (300/600) - 2007/02/07 - 01:07:51 (ET)
Table '42410777 18' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Nuttypoolog (4168 in chips)
Seat 3: Wein (13858 in chips)
Seat 4: 24Shack24 (16365 in chips)
Seat 5: Wisch (17919 in chips)
Seat 7: hawkins1 (7347 in chips)
Seat 8: truesyalose (4520 in chips)
Seat 9: ChuckTs (11335 in chips)
Nuttypoolog: posts the ante 50
Wein: posts the ante 50
24Shack24: posts the ante 50
Wisch: posts the ante 50
hawkins1: posts the ante 50
truesyalose: posts the ante 50
ChuckTs: posts the ante 50
Wisch: posts small blind 300
hawkins1: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [Qc Qh]
truesyalose: folds
ChuckTs: raises 1200 to 1800
Nuttypoolog: folds
Wein: folds
24Shack24: folds
Wisch: folds
hawkins1: calls 1200
*** FLOP *** [Ah 4h 2h]
hawkins1: checks
24Shack24 said, "clearly"
ChuckTs: checks
*** TURN *** [Ah 4h 2h] 2♠
hawkins1: checks
ChuckTs: bets 2500
hawkins1: folds
ChuckTs collected 4250 from pot
ChuckTs: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4250 | Rake 0
Board [Ah 4h 2h 2s]
Seat 1: Nuttypoolog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Wein folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: 24Shack24 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Wisch (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: hawkins1 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 8: truesyalose folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ChuckTs collected (4250)


What do we do if he leads the turn? He's got ~5K left and he'd be betting enough to commit himself completely (pot's at 4K post-flop). I think we would have to stick him in, no?
 
gord962

gord962

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well done Chuck, I think it was the right move to check the flop.
 
Explosionsinthesky

Explosionsinthesky

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Well, the hand turned out to be quite a deusy! (insert sarcasm here)

I checked in fear of the ace, and the rest of the hand was pretty straightforward.

POKERSTARS GAME #8319203105: TOURNAMENT #42410777, $20+$2 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL IX (300/600) - 2007/02/07 - 01:07:51 (ET)
Table '42410777 18' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Nuttypoolog (4168 in chips)
Seat 3: Wein (13858 in chips)
Seat 4: 24Shack24 (16365 in chips)
Seat 5: Wisch (17919 in chips)
Seat 7: hawkins1 (7347 in chips)
Seat 8: truesyalose (4520 in chips)
Seat 9: ChuckTs (11335 in chips)
Nuttypoolog: posts the ante 50
Wein: posts the ante 50
24Shack24: posts the ante 50
Wisch: posts the ante 50
hawkins1: posts the ante 50
truesyalose: posts the ante 50
ChuckTs: posts the ante 50
Wisch: posts small blind 300
hawkins1: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [Qc Qh]
truesyalose: folds
ChuckTs: raises 1200 to 1800
Nuttypoolog: folds
Wein: folds
24Shack24: folds
Wisch: folds
hawkins1: calls 1200
*** FLOP *** [Ah 4h 2h]
hawkins1: checks
24Shack24 said, "clearly"
ChuckTs: checks
*** TURN *** [Ah 4h 2h] 2♠
hawkins1: checks
ChuckTs: bets 2500
hawkins1: folds
ChuckTs collected 4250 from pot
ChuckTs: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4250 | Rake 0
Board [Ah 4h 2h 2s]
Seat 1: Nuttypoolog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Wein folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: 24Shack24 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Wisch (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: hawkins1 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 8: truesyalose folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ChuckTs collected (4250)


What do we do if he leads the turn? He's got ~5K left and he'd be betting enough to commit himself completely (pot's at 4K post-flop). I think we would have to stick him in, no?

on that turn, I dont see him checking an ace then leading turn so I think we would have to set him in because we know by checking the flop we're inducing a bluff.

did he tend to lead a lot of flops and fold to a raise? or was he calling with his 63os and J7os to hit or fold.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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on that turn, I dont see him checking an ace then leading turn so I think we would have to set him in because we know by checking the flop we're inducing a bluff.

did he tend to lead a lot of flops and fold to a raise? or was he calling with his 63os and J7os to hit or fold.

^^^ no, my only reads/notes on him were that he was a fairly tight/aggressive player save the one hand where he called 63o from an EP raiser.
 
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