Push here?

[royalburrito24]

AJ in the SB + 1 limper
full tilt poker Game #4146358165: $5 + $0.50 Knockout (31397669), Table 82 - 120/240 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:44:25 ET - 2007/11/11
Seat 1: irishchamp87 (1,870)
Seat 2: JT0ON (3,047)
Seat 3: bettina_nyc (1,995)
Seat 4: slappdaddy (12,873)
Seat 5: royalburrito24 (3,020)
Seat 6: tweaked17 (7,565)
Seat 7: SuicideKing13 (2,275)
Seat 8: Haines4341 (6,580)
Seat 9: abnandy (7,036)
irishchamp87 antes 25
JT0ON antes 25
bettina_nyc antes 25
slappdaddy antes 25
royalburrito24 antes 25
tweaked17 antes 25
SuicideKing13 antes 25
Haines4341 antes 25
abnandy antes 25
royalburrito24 posts the small blind of 120
tweaked17 posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to royalburrito24 [Jh Ad]
abnandy: ineed u to double me up again now
abnandy: lol
SuicideKing13 folds
Haines4341 calls 240
abnandy folds
irishchamp87 folds
JT0ON folds
bettina_nyc folds
slappdaddy folds
Haines4341: lol
royalburrito24 push or raise or fold and why?

ehhhh

 

[SeanyJ]

Uhhh I would raise to about 3.5 times the big blind. No reason to be shoving, that's for sure.

 

[Emperor IX]

Raise it up my friend. 3-4xbb should be sufficient.

 

[hbkmad]

yea raise it, i say about 2.5x just enough for a call. Maybe u can make some more off of him or you push him out the hand b4 the flop

 

[royalburrito24]

I disagree with all 3 of you, my M zone is about 6.6, which puts me borderline red/orange zone

i chose to push here, mainly because if the limper had AK or AQ or big pair he would have raised, and i do not mind coinflipping here, and all i have to worry about is the BB,

I pushed because i might be able to double up off of a weaker ace or try to catch an A or J against a small pair

I push

he calls

hes got A10

flop is QJ9

turn is a blank

and you can guess it, river is a king

 

[Emperor IX]

You've still got more than 10 bb's, a raise would've been good. You probably would've went broke anyway, but I think a raise would've sufficed.

 

[royalburrito24]

im not looking at BB's thought because sure i have 10 big blinds but that doesnt measure how much it costs to play each round....
If i were to fold every single hand from then on i would be out in 6 and a half rounds

im not sure why I posted this because I stand by my play

oh well

 

[Bentheman87]

Royal Burrito, I agree with your shove here. Starting pot was about 500 or 550 right? That means your M is between 5 and 6. This is so close to the red zone it's the right play to push all in instead of making a smaller raise. You've only got 3000 chips and there's a decent pot out there to win, about 500 chips. If you raise 3x BB, thats 720 chips, almost a third of your stack. The limper will probably call with marginal hands that he may have folded if you pushed (this is all assuming b4 you knew he calls and showed ace ten). So you would go to the flop with 2300 chips about, and a huge more than 1400 chip pot in the middle, so you are nearly pot comitted. Better to just push preflop.

 

[DaFrench1]

im not sure why I posted this because I stand by my play

oh well

It's the wrong attitude. The better play here would have been to put in a raise, just enough to discourage the blinds, and then play out the hand heads up. What is important is to sometimes take a look at your play from your opponents point of view rather than yours. For instance a call to your all-in with A-10 seems questionable (but only because you have A Js), so what was he thinking? No doubt, he probably interpreted your hand as medium strong because you pushed with it (strong = weak). He probably thinks a mid/high PP and you are worried about an ace, and he just
happens to be holding one, no other callers so maybe the other 3 are still in the deck. You'll see this commonly where players will call suspiciously high raises with A-anything, willing to play with just one card because they think if they hit an ace they win. He might even have folded to a raise PF for fear of being dominated with A-10 (the EP call pf is a probe bet, dipping your foot in the water to see if its safe to play) but your push opened up different possibilities.

What has been most interesting for me in analyzing this hand is that I think I've stumbled across a problem in my own game too. You see, I've been dumped out of the last 3 tourneys with the same play as you did (albeit with better holdings, 2 AK's and a AQs) and with the same thought process as you, everytime I was called by a questionable hand and lost. But I think I see now that it is an error to push here because although the hands are strong, your actions appear weak and therefore you invite calls with poor hands and the likelihood of being donked. I think its probably better to appear strong, put in a re-raise and look like you are trying to extract chips, rather than looking desperate.

 

[royalburrito24]

what if i wanted a call from a mediocre hand like that???


i have the advantage in the hand and if it is that strong of an advantage, then i want a call, rather than a fold

 

[DaFrench1]

what if i wanted a call from a mediocre hand like that???


i have the advantage in the hand and if it is that strong of an advantage, then i want a call, rather than a fold

Fair enough, if that was what you wanted then that is what you got!

 

[ChuckTs]

This is a pretty standard push/fold situation, guys. We're out of position with a very marginal hand that won't leave you comfortable with most flops, and you've got a small stack.

I push this without a very good read on the limper.

 

[blankoblanco]

This is a pretty standard push/fold situation, guys. We're out of position with a very marginal hand that won't leave you comfortable with most flops, and you've got a small stack.

I push this without a very good read on the limper.

Chuck wins this thread, gg all around

 

[royalburrito24]

This is a pretty standard push/fold situation, guys. We're out of position with a very marginal hand that won't leave you comfortable with most flops, and you've got a small stack.

I push this without a very good read on the limper.

chuck is the guy that i almost always listen to, and it seems like i always did the same thing he suggested doing.

 

[bw07507]

I agree with Chuck, theres absolutely no way you can just raise this here. With a limper behind you'd have to raise to 4x the BB (~1000) basically pot comitting you + the fact that your OoP with a marginal hand. This is almost a no brainer.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Echoing the "obvious push/fold" sentiment.

- You're OOP. Shoving eliminates this as a problem, putting in a smaller raise will often intensify it as a problem.

- You have an unpaired hand which will benefit more from seeing all five board cards. Should you get called and miss a flop (which I'd estimate will happen about half the time if you make a 3-3.5BB pfrr), you either will have to (a) blindly c-bet (which will have to be a shove) with Ace high, or (b) check-fold having put nearly a third of your stack into the pot. You shove, you get to see all five cards which helps you greatly when up against low-mid pairs that we're flipping with with out AT, which form a decent portion of villain's limping range.

- Your stack is small enough to justify the shove.

- Villain has shown no strength in limping, so while we can't treat his limp as completely dead money, we will be expecting him to fold the majority of the time to a shove, which we don't mind, as taking this pot down preflop represents an increase in our stack size of about a fifth.

 

[royalburrito24]

dorkus how come i always click the link in your signature even though i know what it is!

ahhh


and amazing post, i completely agree and maybe I just wanted validation that i made the correct play to push.

 

[OzExorcist]

I vote push as well, FWIW.

Once you bet a decent amount pre-flop, you're very close to pot committed anyway. And what if you get re-raised pre-flop?

 

[royalburrito24]

I vote push as well, FWIW.

Once you bet a decent amount pre-flop, you're very close to pot committed anyway. And what if you get re-raised pre-flop?

agreed


wat is FWIW mean? jw...

 

[OzExorcist]

wat is FWIW mean? jw...

FWIW = for what it's worth

 

[royalburrito24]

thank you Oz