Proper Heads Up Play?

[PurgatoryD]

Hey all!

This hand is from a play money tourney at pokerstars with 45 people. Since it's play money, I know it makes it harder to analyze as "real", but since we had both invested a couple of hours to get here, it felt pretty "real" at the time.

Anyhow, we were heads up and this is the hand that turned it for me. However, just because it happened to work out doesn't mean it was necessarily the "right" play. I know A9 is strong heads up, but because my opponent preflop raised, I put her on at least 2 cards over my 9, most likely one of them an A. She usually didn't take a stab unless she had something. So I thought the right move was to see the board before committing. Should I have just pushed all in from the beginning?

Here's the hand, and thanks for any comments!
dave


Stacks:
* BB with 28570
* SB with 38930

Blinds: 800/1600
Site: Pokerstars
* * Dealt to BB:9♥ A♦
* * Sklansky group 8
Preflop: SB raises 1600 to 3200 Hero calls [1600]
* * Potsize: 6400
Flop: J♥ 9♠ 7♦ Hero bets [25295] [ all-in ] SB calls [25295]
* * Potsize: 56990
Turn: J♣
* * Potsize: 56990
River: 3♠
Results:
* * Hero shows two pair, Jacks and Nines: 9♥ A♦
* * SB shows a pair of Jacks: Q♣ K♦ Hero collected 57140 from pot

Poker Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum

 

[c9h13no3]

Your M = 11.9, so we're getting close to push/fold time. If your opponent is able to fold after they raise (which is very rare in play money games, but it does happen), then shoving all in here is a perfectly good play. We likely have the best hand, but A9o doesn't flop that well, so I wouldn't mind shipping it preflop with a fairly strong ace for heads up.

On the flop, generally you'd want to check/call and let your retarded opponent make a mistake. Usually players won't call an all in with just a gutshot & 2 over cards. But I suppose you can never tell in these free games.

So yeah, my default lines would vary as follows:

1) Re-raise all in preflop against an opponent who can fold.
2) Check/Raise all in on the flop against a more spewy opponent.

 

[S93]

I dont like pushing on the flop. A bet of 5K whould have given u the same amount of information with out risking your tournement life on second pair.
prf i migh actualy consider re-rasing as well.

But all in all nothing to bad your oponent maked a bad call but u have to realize u whount be called there allot if your oponet doesnt have an overpair,jack or atleast a nine

 

[Zingmaster]

raise on the button often. A rag doesn't mean push.

 

[PurgatoryD]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the input. So it looks like my opponent definitely made a bad call. That aside, looks like I should have went all in preflop.

1) Re-raise all in preflop against an opponent who can fold.

What if you are playing a nit, or someone that you have reliably put on Ax? Is that 9 kicker good enough for you? I'm behind in the stack, but not that far. You're right though, with a standard aggressive player, that raise doesn't necessarily mean they have anything.

I love heads up, but it's so fast paced. All decisions are bang, bang, bang. I think there is no substitute for knowing your opponent in heads up!

A bet of 5K whould have given u the same amount of information with out risking your tournement life on second pair.

Hmmm... another good point. What if she calls at that point? Just check my way on out to the river? I've done that before... when it's obvious neither will fold, but hands not good enough to go all in, we just check on down and let the cards play. I'd rather have my opponent fold and not play, so I guess it all depends.

Thanks again,
dave

 

[c9h13no3]

What if you are playing a nit, or someone that you have reliably put on Ax? Is that 9 kicker good enough for you? I'm behind in the stack, but not that far. You're right though, with a standard aggressive player, that raise doesn't necessarily mean they have anything.

Against nits who think you're supposed to play the same way at 1600 BB as you do at 10 BB, then no, A9 isn't good enough. Hell, nothing is good enough. If they're extremely tight, we should just be grinding them down, stealing their blinds, folding whenever they give us resistance & we don't have the nuts.

I love heads up, but it's so fast paced. All decisions are bang, bang, bang. I think there is no substitute for knowing your opponent in heads up!

And I think this whole "bet 5K for information" stuff is bonkers. If we put 5000 chips into the middle, we're pretty close to committed. Plus, not a whole lot of worse hands call (unless you're in a free game). So I think this is a pretty clear check on the flop out of position.

 

[PurgatoryD]

Hell, nothing is good enough. If they're extremely tight, we should just be grinding them down, stealing their blinds, folding whenever they give us resistance & we don't have the nuts.

Hey, I like that! Have you ever observed this in real money play? I mean, first of all, can a reliable nit typically make it to heads up? And second of all, even a nit loosens up heads up, don't they? I just haven't played enough opponents to know.

So I think this is a pretty clear check on the flop out of position.

OK, and so on a min raise do you go all in? And fold on an all in? I know I'm "out of position", but sometimes I feel like the first one to bet is "in position" because first all in takes it on two marginal hands. Well, if your opponent knows how to fold. Is that just too dangerous? Maybe that play only works if you are chip leader. Whoops, was I throwing around "muscle" that I didn't have?

Thanks. Did I mention that I love poker?
dave

 

[S93]

And I think this whole "bet 5K for information" stuff is bonkers. If we put 5000 chips into the middle, we're pretty close to committed. Plus, not a whole lot of worse hands call (unless you're in a free game). So I think this is a pretty clear check on the flop out of position.

We bet 5k leaving 20k behind with the blinds at 800/1600 and the pot of 16K its marginal but where not comited and can fold to a re-shove or reevaluate the turn.
And then there is the fact that this flop missed vilian 65% of the time so he should be folding alot of the time.

 

[markpro]

i have to say that i believe it wasnt the best of plays. you decided to go allin before even seeing her hand. Now, you could have put a sizable raise with a probable chance of winning, but a good player would only call you if he or she had a jack at least! so you would either win the pot which you had a better hand with even though, or lose to a calling better hand... in the end you will probably lose money if you play this way. Those are just my thoughts... take care .

 

[c9h13no3]

We bet 5k leaving 20k behind with the blinds at 800/1600 and the pot of 16K its marginal but where not comited and can fold to a re-shove or reevaluate the turn.
And then there is the fact that this flop missed vilian 65% of the time so he should be folding alot of the time.

So we want him to fold when we have him beaten (that 65%), and call when we're behind. This doesn't seem like a great way to make him make a poker mistake... Not to mention that we're planning to fold if he shoves, which allows a hand like KQ which we beat to move us off the pot. Why not check, let an aggressive player c-bet, and then get it in against his wide range?

As far as what size bet I'd call on the flop, it depends so much on my opponent. It could be a check/fold against nits who don't bet with less than top pair, or a check/raise all in against spewy players. But in either case, its a pretty standard check, and then wait for our opponent to react. And I'm calling a bet from most opponents.

Heads up is so much about reads. If you want any meaningful analysis you'll need to include information about how your opponent has been playing.

 

[PurgatoryD]

Heads up is so much about reads. If you want any meaningful analysis you'll need to include information about how your opponent has been playing.

Yeah, this is so true. I thought she had been playing fairly tight, so the call with that hand surprised me. Then again, maybe the gut shot was something she couldn't let go.

I think if I had checked, she probably would have checked or min raised. Then I should have put her on the straight draw. I hate giving away a free card to those draws, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that a check is the best play against *this* player. But I've played a lot of people who will raise me trying to get me out at this point. Like I said before, sometimes first to the pot gets it.

Thanks again for the input, guys. Definitely gives me something to think about for future games.

dave

 

[S93]

So we want him to fold when we have him beaten (that 65%), and call when we're behind. This doesn't seem like a great way to make him make a poker mistake... Not to mention that we're planning to fold if he shoves, which allows a hand like KQ which we beat to move us off the pot. Why not check, let an aggressive player c-bet, and then get it in against his wide range?

As far as what size bet I'd call on the flop, it depends so much on my opponent. It could be a check/fold against nits who don't bet with less than top pair, or a check/raise all in against spewy players. But in either case, its a pretty standard check, and then wait for our opponent to react. And I'm calling a bet from most opponents.

Heads up is so much about reads. If you want any meaningful analysis you'll need to include information about how your opponent has been playing.

I never said fold to a re-shove like u say its complety depentend on the vilian and given that OP didnt include any reads/stats/image on neither vilian or hero is the reason i gave that analysis.
Also i never said beting out 5K was better then checking i said it was better then over shoving the pot imo.
"We bet 5k leaving 20k behind with the blinds at 800/1600 and the pot of 16K its marginal but where not comited and can fold to a re-shove or reevaluate the turn."

 

[markpro]

well i would have raised none the less. unless she had trio of jacks or a pocket pair, your definitly beating her, and you dont want the gunshot to happen either so a raise is definitly up to it. Also depending on how she plays you could slow play or who knows what other creative move you might have up your sleave

 

[PurgatoryD]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the continued advice.

Also depending on how she plays you could slow play or who knows what other creative move you might have up your sleave

Yeah, I could get creative, although I don't see myself slow playing second highest pair, especially when it's a 9. Maybe I should here or there, but I'd rather not have to play that one out. I really was hoping for a fold, but oh well, what are you gonna do?

dave